[blueandwhite]

I had a big "discussion" with a neighbour yesterday about what the leafs need to do to fix things. Okay, it wasn't a fight, but he certainly disagreed with my suggestions, and i thoroughly disagreed with his.
He says boot Kubina to the minors and take that 5 mill and do something with that. I hated kubina at the start of this year - gee he was injured most of it - then it took him some time to come back but come mid season, he was a real piece of this defence. i love him.
I said get rid of raycroft.
he said get rid of ferguson - he actually said, can't get rid of raycroft without getting rid of ferguson - i said, watch him do it.
Which lead to Sundin talk, and I think he should consider taking a pay cut. the neighbour thinks Sundin is the leafs. Some supporters of this idea suggest he could take, say, 1 mill for himself next season and give up the 4 mill to find another great player. It's been done (see stevie Y).
I'm not saying I don't love and respect the Swede but it's not working, is it?
Finally, my neighbour suggested they do a clean house, but i say they won't. Too many young players they are grooming. Like I said, O'neill and Green are gone, the old guys who didn't even find the ice surface those last few weeks. beyond that, it's up to Sundin to take some flack, and give up some $$.

[ThePundit]

I don't watch the Leafs on a day-to-day basis, but it seems to me that Sundin miserably failed in the final 20 games of the year - when they needed him to step up.

Hey - even Alexi Yashin did more for the Isles than Sundin did for the Leafs.

If I'm running the Leafs, I don't bring him back next year.

[blueandwhite]

Thing is, all of them look up to him tremendously - these last few days all of the players have been speaking out about how amazing they think Mats is - and even if he's not racking up the goals, he got a pile of assists those last 20 games. he is really the leader, and there is no one to take his place right now.
I don't want to say, dump him. But he needs to figure out how it will work better with him as leader - maybe it comes down to money. making some room. We don't have any real superstars on our team, beyond Sundin.

[Gotham Dark Knight]

Originally Posted by blueandwhite

Thing is, all of them look up to him tremendously - these last few days all of the players have been speaking out about how amazing they think Mats is - and even if he's not racking up the goals, he got a pile of assists those last 20 games. he is really the leader, and there is no one to take his place right now.
I don't want to say, dump him. But he needs to figure out how it will work better with him as leader - maybe it comes down to money. making some room. We don't have any real superstars on our team, beyond Sundin.

Ah, take it with a grain of salt, its only Pundit...the man has it in for Barry Bonds, Ricky Williams, Roger Clemens and a host of elite stars...Sundin is the leader of the squad and his leadership is felt beyond the numbers...

[blueandwhite]

on another team, that would probably be the answer - on Toronto, mats has dug himself in.

[ThePundit]

Originally Posted by Gotham Dark Knight

Ah, take it with a grain of salt, its only Pundit...the man has it in for Barry Bonds, Ricky Williams, Roger Clemens and a host of elite stars...Sundin is the leader of the squad and his leadership is felt beyond the numbers...

There goes Gotham again mischacterizing my positions. The only guy on your list that I can't stand is Bonds, and why would anybody like him? He's a miserable SOB.

I have a Roger Clemens Yankee AND Astro jersey. I might be the biggest Yankees Clemens fan, ever....All I said about him was that I'm sick of hearing about his retirement decisions.

Also, read my previous postings on Ricky Williams. I've said I think he's a good guy who has problems. But just like Clemens, I'm sick of hearing about -he's playing - not playing etc....

Regarding Sundin, I said I don't watch the team on a regular basis, and from afar, I didn't think he produced when it counted. Now Blue, who watches the team on a day to basis, said he adds other things, so she certainly knows more than me about the team.

But I'll say this: Leadership can be an overrated thing. It's also about production. 2 years, no playoffs. That's all I'm saying.

[Gotham Dark Knight]

Originally Posted by ThePundit

There goes Gotham again mischacterizing my positions. The only guy on your list that I can't stand is Bonds, and why would anybody like him? He's a miserable SOB.

I have a Roger Clemens Yankee AND Astro jersey. I might be the biggest Yankees Clemens fan, ever....All I said about him was that I'm sick of hearing about his retirement decisions.

Also, read my previous postings on Ricky Williams. I've said I think he's a good guy who has problems. But just like Clemens, I'm sick of hearing about -he's playing - not playing etc....

Regarding Sundin, I said I don't watch the team on a regular basis, and from afar, I didn't think he produced when it counted. Now Blue, who watches the team on a day to basis, said he adds other things, so she certainly knows more than me about the team.

But I'll say this: Leadership can be an overrated thing. It's also about production. 2 years, no playoffs. That's all I'm saying.

Old habits are hard to break...

BTW, Ty Cobb was also a miserable SOB...but i am sure he had some fans also...

[blueandwhite]

That's interesting Pundit - do you really think leadership is overrated?
I feel very confused about the whole Sundin thing right now. I go back and forth.
I used to be a ball fan back when the jays were just starting out, and the Orioles had guys like Jim palmer and my favourite was Doug deCinces - so what do i know? - but Barry Bonds seems like a blight on the sport. On the other hand, I quite liked Clemens, when the Jays had him. I guess he's become bigger than himself since then. He signed a baseball for me.
That said, i get TOO emotional about some players. How else could Doug DeCinces be my favourite ball player?

[ThePundit]

Originally Posted by blueandwhite

That's interesting Pundit - do you really think leadership is overrated?

At times it can be. Look at the 1977 & 1978 New York Yankees. Talk about a fractured clubhhouse. Everybody hated each other on these teams but they still won the championship.

Now if the team is already good and competitive, it's great to have a veteran who players look up to and can keep the team together. But when you don't make the playoffs for 2 years, what good is the leadership?

Maybe they can keep him and get another player who is more productive to go along with that. But if they can't, what have the Leafs really accompolished with Sundin? Sometimes, you have to say goodbye to good players who the fans and players love to improve the team.

WHen I was 11 years old, I was crushed when the Yankees traded Bobby Murcer for Bobby Bonds, but then they traded Bonds for Mickey Rivers and Ed Figueroa- 2 huge pieces in their championship run.

[Gotham Dark Knight]

Originally Posted by ThePundit

At times it can be. Look at the 1977 & 1978 New York Yankees. Talk about a fractured clubhhouse. Everybody hated each other on these teams but they still won the championship..

Doesn't mean they did not have leaders...Martin, Munson, Jackson etc...didn't get along well...but they had leadership skill...there is a difference between leadership and chemistry...

Originally Posted by ThePundit

Now if the team is already good and competitive, it's great to have a veteran who players look up to and can keep the team together. But when you don't make the playoffs for 2 years, what good is the leadership? ..

It is the foundation of what you need going forward

Originally Posted by ThePundit

Maybe they can keep him and get another player who is more productive to go along with that. But if they can't, what have the Leafs really accompolished with Sundin? Sometimes, you have to say goodbye to good players who the fans and players love to improve the team.....

provide you can actually get or groom a new leader...I do not think its as easy as you make it out to be...

Originally Posted by ThePundit

WHen I was 11 years old, I was crushed when the Yankees traded Bobby Murcer for Bobby Bonds, but then they traded Bonds for Mickey Rivers and Ed Figueroa- 2 huge pieces in their championship run.

I remember that trade...superstar for superstar...though I am not willing to call Ed and Mickey a huge piece of the puzzle...good complimentary players, but without a cast of stars they wouldn't have done much...Yankees went deep into free agency after Murcer, grabbed Reggie and Catfish etc...and built a new team...I am not sure Toronto is in the same boat...


On a side note: Doug DeCinces?...a dark period in your life perhaps blueandwhite girl...

[blueandwhite]

That said by the Underdog King.
i thought you 'd appreciate it.

[Gotham Dark Knight]

Originally Posted by blueandwhite

That said by the Underdog King.
i thought you 'd appreciate it.

There are Underdogs and then there are favorite players...reminds me of my kid brother who favored Ed Podolak of the Chiefs in Football and Darrell Evan in Baseball....

Doug played after Brooks Robinson and before Cal, and well, when you are collecting cards as a kid, you don't want the DeCines card, you want the Robinson or the Ripken...

Having said that, you will be pleased to know that he is in the Orioles Hall of Fame...

[blueandwhite]

Hey really?
I was young, he was - you know - "cute".
I loved that team - DeCinces, Scottie Mcgregor, Mike Flanagan, Jim palmer, Ken Singleton, Rich Dauer, Eddie Murray, Rick Dempsey, Al Bumbry and coached by Weaver.
I hated the Pirates from that point on. Always will. We are family - whatever.
Made me love baseball, that team.
I dropped out from it, started becoming a real jays fan just as some dude name Cal Ripken jr. came on the team.

[Gotham Dark Knight]

Originally Posted by blueandwhite

Hey really?
I was young, he was - you know - "cute".
I loved that team - DeCinces, Scottie Mcgregor, Mike Flanagan, Jim palmer, Ken Singleton, Rich Dauer, Eddie Murray, Rick Dempsey, Al Bumbry and coached by Weaver.
I hated the Pirates from that point on. Always will. We are family - whatever.
Made me love baseball, that team.
I dropped out from it, started becoming a real jays fan just as some dude name Cal Ripken jr. came on the team.

See, had you said Palmer...okay...but Doug...

And I did back you on that Bob Bailor crush... a true Underdog, and the Jays got him from the Orioles to boot...

But yeah, you know your mid to late 70's Orioles...

[ThePundit]

[quote]

Originally Posted by Gotham Dark Knight

provide you can actually get or groom a new leader...I do not think its as easy as you make it out to be... QUOTE]

That's all I'm saying. I never meant that they should Sundin packing without some alternative plan. All I'm saying was the fact that leadership alone is no reason to keep someone around.