[Bob Tanner]

ESPN has a top 25 racers of all time article:
ESPN.com Selects Top 25 All Time Drivers: ESPN.com has asked a panel of 19 experts and former drivers to vote for the top drivers that piloted anything with wheels and an engine, and from those votes has compiled a list of the Top 25 drivers of all time. Spanning a wide range of racing disciplines the list is being revealed in segments this week on the leading sports site. The feature package launched Monday, by revealing the 25-21-ranked drivers and will reveal five drivers a day for the rest of the week, unveiling the 5-1-ranked drivers on Friday, leading into the Indy 500 and the Coca-Cola 600. The list so far:
25. Steve Kinser
24. Nigel Mansell
23. Don Garlits
22. Niki Lauda
21. Shirley Muldowney
20. Darrell Waltrip
19. Emerson Fittipaldi
18. Alain Prost
17. Bobby Unser
16. Tony Stewart
15. Al Unser
14. Cale Yarborough
13. Jackie Stewart
12. John Force
11. Rick Mears
10. Jeff Gordon
9. Juan Manuel Fangio
8. Jim Clark
7. David Pearson
6. Richard Petty
See the stoty, list and driver links at ESPN.com.(5-22-2008

These 19 "experts" and "former drivers" must be your average thirty-somethings who, if they have no personal memory of anything then it just never happened.

Obviously one thru five will include Dale Sr., Mario Andretti, Michael Schumacher and A.J. Foyt. Hopefully someone will have the sense to put Ayrton Senna there too (they acknowledged Alain Prost)

However, as usual, most of everything which happened before these "experts" were born, or switched from covering stick&ball to racing, just never happened. Missing from the list are:
Ralph DePalma, Gaston Chevrolet, Mauri Rose, Louis Meyer, Wilbur Shaw, Mickey Thompson, Curtis Turner, Barney Oldfield, Sir Malcolm Campbell, Dan Gurney, just to name a few. These people won more and did more for racing than, for example, "Cha-Cha" Muldowney, Tony Stewart or Rick Mears ever thought of!

These "Top-Whatever" Lists sometimes really whiz in my Post-Toasties!

[PettyBlue]

I agree 100%.The King and The Silver Fox #6 and#7? ESPN - The Kid, The King, the Silver Fox and two of open-wheel racing's very best - Racing ?Well there are at least three people who think these so called experts for ESPN are full of Blount.You,me and McGee.ESPN - The King in sixth? There needs to be a recount - Racing

[Robertdjr]

Originally Posted by Bob Tanner

These 19 "experts" and "former drivers" must be your average thirty-somethings who, if they have no personal memory of anything then it just never happened.

Here's the list of voters:

• Kenny Bernstein -- Six-time NHRA champion with four Funny Car titles and two Top Fuel titles.
• Terry Blount -- ESPN.com motorsports writer.
• Tim Brewer -- ESPN NASCAR commentator and two-time Cup championship crew chief.
• K. Lee Davis -- ESPN.com motorsports editor.
• Mike Dunn -- ESPN analyst for NHRA events and one of only four drivers with 10 or more career victories in Top Fuel and Funny Car.
• Ray Evernham -- ESPN NASCAR analyst and crew chief for three of Jeff Gordon's four Cup championships.
• A.J. Foyt -- Four-time Indy 500 winner.
• Scott Goodyear -- ESPN IndyCar analyst, former IndyCar racer and member of the Canadian Motorsports Hall of Fame.
• Jeff Gordon -- Four-time Cup champion in NASCAR.
• Mike Harris -- Long-time auto racing writer for the Associated Press.
• Dale Jarrett -- ESPN NASCAR analyst and 1999 Cup champion.
• Dan Knutson -- Formula One writer for ESPN.com.
• Ryan McGee -- Motorsports writer for ESPN The Magazine and ESPN.com.
• Juan Pablo Montoya -- Current Cup driver, 1999 CART champion, 2000 Indy 500 winner and former Formula One driver.
• John Oreovicz -- American open-wheel racing writer for ESPN.com.
• Richard Petty -- Seven-time Cup champion in NASCAR.
• Marty Reid -- ESPN motorsports broadcaster.
• Tony Stewart -- Two-time Cup champion in NASCAR and 1997 IRL champion.
• Rusty Wallace -- ESPN NASCAR analyst and 1989 Cup champion.

[PettyBlue]

By my count 9 of 19 have never sat in to drive a race car other than for fun if that.

[Robertdjr]

Here's their top 5:

5. Ayrton Senna
4. Michael Schumacher
3. Dale Earnhardt
2. Mario Andretti
1. A.J. Foyt

[Bob Tanner]

Originally Posted by PettyBlue

By my count 9 of 19 have never sat in to drive a race car other than for fun if that.

My major complaint is that, according to the "experts" (I guess either being employed by or being on ESPN's Christmas card list, qualifies one as an "expert?) is that NO ONE except Juan Fangio, qualifies as a star unless they got to the top levels after 1955? That, my friend, is total, unmitigated Bull Crap!!!

Louis Meyer won Indy three times and was instrumental in developing the Meyer-Drake engine.

Wilbur Shaw won Indy three times and saved the track from ruin when he bought it and refurbished it in 1946.

I won't even insult anyone's intelligence by arguing whether Barney Oldfield and Curtis Turner belong among the top 25 greats.

Once more, this is just another example of the thirty-somethings who think nothing existed before they took personal interest in it. History? They don't need (nor want) any stinking history!

[wingkey1]

Quote Mr. T: "Once more, this is just another example of the thirty-somethings who think nothing existed before they took personal interest in it. History? They don't need (nor want) any stinking history!"

And to those we offer for inclusion/consideration:

Jimmy Bly

Beau Brandenburg

Joe Tanto

Memo Memento

Racer X

Buck Bretherton

Aldo Bennedetti

Rowdy Burns

Buck Bretherton

Harlem Hoogerhyde

Ricky Bobby

[SpaceCadet]

Originally Posted by Bob Tanner

These people won more and did more for racing than, for example, "Cha-Cha" Muldowney, Tony Stewart or Rick Mears ever thought of!

I don't think who did the most for racing was part of the criteria, though we may have liked it to be. It looks to me as if the list is only about the driving skills, or perceived driving skills, of those on the list. For example, you don't feel Shirley Muldowney is a candidate for the list because so many other's have done more for racing, but how much a driver has done for racing is not what the list was about. In my opinion, she shouldn't be on the list because she simply wasn't one of the top 25 drivers. She was, however, a ground breaking driver who changed the image of drag racing and created opportunities for women in a totally male dominated sport. Now, if the list did take into consideration what a driver has done for racing, then I'd put her on it. But I don't think "being good" and "doing more for racing" necessarily go hand in hand.

[Bob Tanner]

Originally Posted by SpaceCadet

I don't think who did the most for racing was part of the criteria, though we may have liked it to be. It looks to me as if the list is only about the driving skills, or perceived driving skills, of those on the list. For example, you don't feel Shirley Muldowney is a candidate for the list because so many other's have done more for racing, but how much a driver has done for racing is not what the list was about. In my opinion, she shouldn't be on the list because she simply wasn't one of the top 25 drivers. She was, however, a ground breaking driver who changed the image of drag racing and created opportunities for women in a totally male dominated sport. Now, if the list did take into consideration what a driver has done for racing, then I'd put her on it. But I don't think "being good" and "doing more for racing" necessarily go hand in hand.

I totally agree. However, since the "experts" who came up with this list so obviously opened the door for "winning plus" criteria I added the "did more" thing.

It just irritates me that some many people who get involved in these "Top Whatever" lists go back only as far as they can personally remember. They might condescend to adding someone so famous (Juan Fangio, for example) it would be impossible to omit them. This same thing holds true with a lot (but obviously not all) new NASCAR fans, who feel nothing of note ever happen in NASCAR until they got interested. Stereotypically this coincides with Jeff Gordon's entrance in 1993.

I digress...

As far as the "experts" go, I can name at least two open wheelers who were better overall drivers, and accomplished as much, as Stevie K. - Rich Vogler and Mel Kenyon.

As far as Bobby Unser and Rick Mears go, I'd take Louis Meyer and Wilbur Shaw any day, for raw talent, let alone what else they did.

F1/Grand Prix... I don't think Alain Prost could hold the driver's suit of either Sterling Moss or Piero Taruffi.

Top whatever Lists... Grrrrrrrrr!!! I think I'd be better off not bothering to read them.

[Quality88]

Originally Posted by Bob Tanner

Top whatever Lists... Grrrrrrrrr!!! I think I'd be better off not bothering to read them.

My friend with as much knowledge and experience as you have it suprises me that you would subject yourslef to such nonsense.

[Bob Tanner]

Originally Posted by Quality88

My friend with as much knowledge and experience as you have it suprises me that you would subject yourslef to such nonsense.

Thank you for putting it in perspective, Dustin. Those things just frustrate me.
My personal definition of frustration is: Trying to control something you have no control over.