[Curves24]

I have a question about plate racing. There has been so much scrutiny this week on it, I am not sure I know the answer to this question or not.

Before plates were made mandatory on tracks like Dega, what was the difference. What made them change?

The reason I like what I always called plate racing is the closeness of the cars. No one breaks away with a 6 second lead, and the cars are not spaced out. It is also exciting as heck, but I don't attribute that to the plates, do I?
What I mean is was the racing close like that before plates were implemented?

Remember there are no stupid questions lol don't rag me on this I honestly am not sure I know this.
Thanks in advance!

[Bob Tanner]

Originally Posted by Curves24

I have a question about plate racing. There has been so much scrutiny this week on it, I am not sure I know the answer to this question or not.

Before plates were made mandatory on tracks like Dega, what was the difference. What made them change?

The reason I like what I always called plate racing is the closeness of the cars. No one breaks away with a 6 second lead, and the cars are not spaced out. It is also exciting as heck, but I don't attribute that to the plates, do I?
What I mean is was the racing close like that before plates were implemented?

Remember there are no stupid questions lol don't rag me on this I honestly am not sure I know this.
Thanks in advance!

I'll start it out but Duck will probably be able to give a more "nuts&bolts" technical answer.
Plates have been around for a long time, though a lot of fans are unaware of the fact. The first time NASCAR mandated them was in 1971 when some cars were running monster engines and some lesser teams were running "not-so-monster" engines. NASCAR ordered certain cars at each race to add a restrictor plate to "equalize" the competition. It wasn't a very popular rule and a couple years later NASCAR just reduced the maximum size of an engine used in competition to 358 c.i. The plates disappeared.

They were brought back in 1988 after the 1987 Talladega race. Immediately after that race NASCAR reduced carb size from 750 to 390, plus made some other changes but it wasn't enough. The following year they mandated restrictor plates.

The reason for the panic was that Allison's car came within a whisker of going into the stands when it became airborne after he blew a tire (If you haven't seen the crash - you'd have to be one of the very few which weren't treated to it last week - go to: YouTube - Talladega Crash Bobby Allison Bill Elliott ). I have never seen anything official but it is generally accepted the track's insurance carrier (Lloyd's, K&K,?) told NASCAR and the tracks to "slow those things down and keep them on the ground or you'll be running WITHOUT insurance!"

Hence the plates, tall spoilers, wicker bills, small carbs, roof flaps and everything else NASCAR has thrown at the problem, which obviously still exists.

The last variance in the plate policy was the one-race deal at new Hampshire when they made all the cars run plates at the 2000 race because of the two previous deaths of Kenny Irwin and Adam Petty at the track. The race has become notable for it's being that day's cure for insomnia. It was obviously a knee-jerk reaction to two tragedies and not well thought out. It was the last time plates have been used at tracks other than Daytona and Talladega.

No, the cars weren't bunched up as they are now with the plates. Truck drivers are well aware of how plate racing feels. If you have a rehicle governed down to a max speed of 70 MPH and you pull out to pass a car doing 65, it's maddening getting around because you have no throttle response. In my personal view, plates border on being criminal because they inflict even more danger on the drivers than existed prior to the plates. But, that's just one view and not a popular one with a lot of fans.

I guess I could have answered your question with a simple: "To slow them down" but I thought you might like a minor bit of NA__AR history, a subject I dearly love.

[Curves24]

That Allison wreck looked a whole lot like Carl's! So the cars weren't bunched up like that sans plates? I don't much like the thought of someone getting hurt, but I do like the racing like at Dega, I can't help it. I would survive if they changed things though. I assume it was still an awesome track and put on an awesome race none the less.

[Bob Tanner]

Originally Posted by Curves24

That Allison wreck looked a whole lot like Carl's! So the cars weren't bunched up like that sans plates? I don't much like the thought of someone getting hurt, but I do like the racing like at Dega, I can't help it. I would survive if they changed things though. I assume it was still an awesome track and put on an awesome race none the less.

Bunched up, no. BUT they did run is columns. It was normal to see 3-4 cars running 200MPH all the way around the track running about 4-5 inches, or even closer, off the car's-in-front, bumper. Really serious drafting, but no bump drafting. I don't remember seeing any bump drafting any way.

The current "racing at Talladega" is, for many of us, a matter of debate. Personally I don't care for it because the cars are so similar in speed that racing takes on a completely different perspective from what a lot of old-time fans are used to.

For example, in...? 1986? - someone help me here, Bill Elliott came from a lap down to win the race without benefit of a caution flag!!?? He was just that much faster than the rest of the field! Prior to the early 90's the number of "debris" cautions was minimal. If they would have thrown a phony "debris (competition) caution," the fans would have gone wild. There wasn't the artificially-produced high number of cars finishing on the lead lap, no Lucky Dawg, and normally when you left the track to go home you had the feeling you had seen a real auto race, and not some made-for-TV entertainment event. If you wanted to talk to an owner or a driver, just stick around the track for awhile and then, as you were driving home, look for the restaurant or bar with some trailers with stock cars on the back parked out front. Walk in, tell the guy you thought they had a good race and offer to buy him a beer and you'd get all the autographs you could handle (maybe even the bill if you didn't watch them too closely).

Those were the days that drew me to stock car and sprint car racing. Today there is more glitz, more TV and radio coverage (24/7,geeeesh! Talk about overkill!), NASCAR didn't have The Chosen 35 (though they did, after 1976, a Provisional Rule which was horrible but looks good by Chosen 35 standards), less money in the championship; the drivers were interested in winning the most money in a race, NOT IN THE SEASON and it's more mainstream... Know what? I like MY stock car racing better. This new version is OK but it's just not the type of racing I prefer. That's why I, and several others here, go to our local tracks every chance we get. The racing there is still more or less as I describe.

Maybe Duck or one of the others will want to add a cent or two to this little rant?

[gordon_fan_4_life]

Something has been bugging me for quite some time now, and I have decided to take it up with you guys to find out the answer! In the points standings...positions 55-63 changed yet again this week...and none of those drivers raced or even attempted to race this weekend! So how the heck do those positions change??? I mean...atleast move that Trevor boys kid up if anyone! Atleast he shows up and tries to qualify!

[Bob Tanner]

Originally Posted by gordon_fan_4_life

Something has been bugging me for quite some time now, and I have decided to take it up with you guys to find out the answer! In the points standings...positions 55-63 changed yet again this week...and none of those drivers raced or even attempted to race this weekend! So how the heck do those positions change??? I mean...atleast move that Trevor boys kid up if anyone! Atleast he shows up and tries to qualify!

Are you looking at driver point standings or owner point standings?

The driver point standings shouldn't change. If that's happening I don't have a ready answer.

If it's the owner points, it might be because NA__AR awards points to teams if they file an entry and just bring a car to the track. 25 I think but don't quote me on that. That might account for movement at the back of the standings even when one on there took the green flag?

As far as the Trevor Boys "kid." You must be even older than I. I don't know exactly how old he is but I'm sure he's over 50. He's been entering cars since the mid 80's.

[gordon_fan_4_life]

hmm, I guess your guess is as good as mine. I am looking at driver standings, and it shows people such as Derrick Cope who dropped 2 positions and Brandon Ash gained 2. Here is what I am looking at directly from nascars site!

NASCAR.COM

[Bob Tanner]

Originally Posted by gordon_fan_4_life

hmm, I guess your guess is as good as mine. I am looking at driver standings, and it shows people such as Derrick Cope who dropped 2 positions and Brandon Ash gained 2. Here is what I am looking at directly from nascars site!

NASCAR.COM

OK, I went to the site (Boy! NA__AR.com has changed since the last time I went there) and see what puzzles you. They all are -1441 (zero points) yet there is movement? To me it would logical for NA__AR to list all of them at a 53rd place tie but...???

It's just NA__AR being NA__AR, I guess. Interesting though. Good catch on your part.

[gordon_fan_4_life]

Originally Posted by Bob Tanner

OK, I went to the site (Boy! NA__AR.com has changed since the last time I went there) and see what puzzles you. They all are -1441 (zero points) yet there is movement? To me it would logical for NA__AR to list all of them at a 53rd place tie but...???

It's just NA__AR being NA__AR, I guess. Interesting though. Good catch on your part.

Thanks. It has been happening about every week, and I finally decided I wanted to get to the bottom of it...but yet, I haven't! Guess i'll have to figure out how people send in questions during air time on tv and get it answered by them...although they will probably be just as puzzled!

[Bob Tanner]

Originally Posted by gordon_fan_4_life

Thanks. It has been happening about every week, and I finally decided I wanted to get to the bottom of it...but yet, I haven't! Guess i'll have to figure out how people send in questions during air time on tv and get it answered by them...although they will probably be just as puzzled!

IF you do fine a definitive answer, please let me know.

[gordon_fan_4_life]

I will let everyone know!

[Racer Duck]

re the changing of position in the points standings when there are no points being awarded.

it's really simple: it all has to do with the order of the list. if you check out the owner standings, you will notice Theresa Boys, owner of the #106, which Trevor drives, jumped up 5 positions in the owner standings by virtue of attempting to qualify at a race. But Derrike Cope didn't attempt to qualify, so he got no points. So, Theresa jumped +5 which tied her with Danielle Long (#146) at 47 owner points. Cope was one of those she jumped over, so he fell -1.

when the NASCAR folks went to calculate this weeks points, they probably used the owner points list order to feed the driver points list calculations which, in turn saw some positions in the list move around even tho there were no points changes. and the position change is calculated strictly from the position in the list, not the change in points.

I guess you could call it "sloppy bookkeeping", which wouldn't surprise me in the least considering the organization we are talking about.

[Racer Duck]

the primary purpose for the restrictor plate has always been to hurt the horsepower of the engines by obstructing the airflow into the engine. over the years the engine guys have been able to find work arounds so that they are still making good horsepower, but at a lesser level. since all the cars use NASCAR's plates, (they actually get them from NASCAR and NASCAR checks them to make sure they haven't been tampered with in any way) all the cars have the same handicap .. except some of the folks who specialize in restrictor plate racing have advanced the science to a point where they are gaining 25, 50 hp over those who don't have the resouces to "advance" their own science. that's why certain shops are known for their restrictor plate engines (DEI is one such shop.)

If you care to check back in the record books, before restrictor plates hit Talladega (and Daytone) it wasn't uncommon for a winner to have several laps on the entire field. Another common result was for 2 or 3 or 4 cars to lap the entire field several times then fight it out on the last few laps. And everybody was cool with that until Allison's "flight". But it wasn't NASCAR or the fans who demanded a change. And, if truth be known, the insurance people didn't care one way or the other 'cause they would benefit no matter what happened.

You see, the insurance people didn't care about the restictor plate, but they impressed on the tracks and NASCAR that if there was another incident like Allison's at the next race, they'd probably be out of business (it was gonna go up ten fold at a minimum just to cover the added liability unless they did something to slow the cars down so that another "flight" didn't happen...) So, while the insurance people didn't care which way it went, NASCAR and Talladega couldn't afford to be shut down 'cause they couldn't afford the insurance and they certainly couldn't afford the liability of a spectator getting killed.

Most folks forget that back then you could get insurance on anything, as long as you were willing to pay the premium!

[gordon_fan_4_life]

They change the standings daily don't they?? Ask Bob Tanner...the standings now ain't in the same way they were acouple days ago after the race had already happened! It never showed Trevor Boys with a big jump like that. It actually showed him staying in the same position as he was in b4 this week! Maybe NASCAR saw our questions on this site, and decided that if they changed it to show Trevor jumping up 10 spots, then we would believe it actually meant something!

[Racer Duck]

ahhh, you're falling for one of the two faced things about NASCAR. NASCAR will post "unofficial" standings immediately after the race, but then post the "official" standings later in the week, usually on Tuesday or Wednesday, after they levy their penalties for infractions in the race and infractions found in tech after the race. many folks don't realize there's actually two different postings.