[Bob Tanner]

Warning: This is going to be one of those pesky non-specific racing action and non-specific driver diatribes. If such subjects don't interest you, feel free to stop here. It's lengthy and might tend to bore you.

Jeffie's wreck last week was kinda scarey. I've seen harder hits (A wreck a couple years ago in BGN where the car almost literally exploded and Mikey's Bristol wreck fifteen years ago, come to mind), but last week's wreck was about as bad as it has been recently. Jeff could have easily been very seriously hurt and/or maimed. This is a danger faced every race day.

My question is one which has been raised periodically over the years; who takes care of the wreck victims immediately after the wreck?

The answer is local emergency medical teams and local doctors. To my knowledge, NA__AR has no medical staff on the payroll.

Why is this a problem? It hasn't been, so far. But, let me ask a couple questions? What is the qualification for being part of a race day medical team? Are they just volunteer or part-time EMT's? Are they doc's who would rather spend a day at the track then out on the links? Are they part of a purchased medical team which was the lowest bidder?

As a fan who cares for no driver specifically but rather for all of them, I would like to know.

Basically, I think NA__AR could be proactive here and have its own traveling medical team, as IRL/CART and (I think) F1 does.

Why should NA__AR do such a thing? I have some thoughts:
(1) NA__AR could control the level of expertise of the medical personal. I have no way of knowing for sure but I would bet the farm that, at some race in the past decade, some local EMT's Uncle Joe, who is a rabid NA__AR fan, got to don a jump suit and set in the crash truck and watch the race close up.

(2) Any emergency room doc will tell you auto crash trauma causes some unique injuries. Some of these injuries are immediately noticeable (internal tearing due to rapid deceleration, for example). An EMT specially trained in recognizing this type of injury might, someday, spell the difference between your driver's finishing out the season or going to room temperature.

(3) The NA__AR medical team would be familiar with the drivers on a personal level. For example, I happen to know that Elliott Sadler is terrified of a needle. He admits to literally screaming and/or feinting at the sight of one close to him. Let's say he wrecks and needs an injection or an IV of Ringers or D5W. A med tech who knows this about Elliott might be a bit more cautious doing the injection.

A med tech who is personally familiar with the drivers could know immediately if a driver had allergies to a specific antibiotic, saving possible complications.

Someone personally familiar with the drivers could comfort. In a time of pain someone telling Jeff "We'll get Ingrid down here ASAP, old buddy." Would be a lot more reassuring than a simple "You'll be OK," as the door shuts on the ambulance.

This subject has come up before, most recently by Ryan Newman, who has racing under both ways of medical needs. NA__AR is steadfast in their refusal to use NA__AR medical teams.

Why? Maybe it's cost? Now the tracks pay for the medical services, do the hiring and certification.
Maybe it's me but this seems kind of...? Slipshod?
Maybe it's the legal aspect? IF the medical team screwed up, NA__AR could legally be held liable. Considering lives might be at stake, I, personally, think this is a really crappy reason.
Maybe it's tradition? "We've always done it this way; it's just our tradition!" Well, the Southern 500 on Labour Day at Darlington was a "tradition," too. Stick that one where the sun don't shine!

In another venue I found the following from another fan who feels the same concerns as I do. I thought his post was interesting, especially in the way NA__AR responded:
Douglas Borkowski wrote:
Hey Steve! This is something that I have been trying to get NASCAR to listen to for more than 2 years. I set up a whole medical program for NASCAR and when I sent it to them I got a note from Brian France's lawyer stating that they "don't accept unsolicited ideas from people outside of NASCAR". No I understand that they alone have all the great ideas, but I felt I had some good ones. The program I proposed would even fund itself so NASCAR wouldn't have to, and I volunteered to travel to every race. Unfortunately, it's bee like Jeff Gordon running into the inside concrete wall. Doug

I might be completely by myself here, but I think this is an important issue and that NA__AR should address it, in some manner. But, I could be very, very wrong.

[BringBackWilkesboro]

You aren't by youself, Bob. That's something I'd like to know as well, because I know for a while at NHIS, alot of the crash response team was composed of members from the Loudon and Belmont (and maybe Concord, not sure) fire departments, one of which I know for a fact is a volunteer department. I don't know if it's different now or what the story is, but that just doesn't make sense to me.

I do know that they have regulars working the care center, but I don't know what the qualifications are for those positions. I would assume they's be pretty substantial, but I just don't know.

And what you said about Jeff's wreck, It looked very similar to a wreck Steve Grissom had at At the old Atlanta 10-11 years ago. I remember he spun off of Jimmy Spencer and did the same thing Jeff did, went into a gap in the inside wall. Except in this one, he went in backwards, split the car in half, turned over and burst into flames. That brings us to exaclty what your talking about. Grissom suffered some sort of foot injury and we sat watching for some 10 minutes while the response team tried to figure out how they were going to get Steve out.

I'm with you. I think there needs to be a highly trained team on hand especially for immediate response. Who knows what would have happened if Steve's fire hadn't burned itself out and nobody had any idea how to get him out?

[BringBackWilkesboro]

And wouldn't you know it, I've found it on Youtube.

YouTube - Steve Grissom hits wall at Atlanta

I think this is much worse in terms of severity, but there are some very close similarities between this and Gordon. And I see that the fire was actually separated from the car, so as far as that goes, he was in no real danger, but he easily could have been.

[Quality88]

Bob there was actually a big to do about this subject like 3 or 4 years ago.... just after Elliot Sadler had a wreck and freaked in the medical center. He doesn't like needles and they were gonna stick him with one. His biggest point was if they had a full-time med staff like F1/cart etc that wouldn't have been a problem cause the medical staff would know each driver individually and what their reactions to certain things or treatment. I actually think this would be a good idea.

Don't get me wrong.... Often Volunteers are just as good as the ones who are full-time or pros. I mainly speak of Firefighters because they are trained to respond as EMT's as well as dancin with the Devil.

I feel though that a full-time travelin staff would be better at this point and juncture in the sport.

[wingkey1]

This is one of those: "Can't see how one could argue against" - having at the very least a common crew that establishes and is responsible to assure baselines for immediate and complimentary response and readiness at each venue.

And the arranging, assuring, and integrating, the complimentary would at least on the first go round/visit to a venue, be perhaps the most significant and important.

Anyone ever hear of Doug Wolfgang? Classic case study.

[LSC9901]

Here is one response to your questions. How true it is could be another entire issue.


ESPN - Medical treatment serious business at NASCAR - Nascar

[Bob Tanner]

Originally Posted by LSC9901

Here is one response to your questions. How true it is could be another entire issue.
ESPN - Medical treatment serious business at NASCAR - Nascar

I read a lot about how NA__AR does things. I didn't read a single thing which assured me that what they are doing is the correct way.

For example:

"Ambulances, fire trucks and/or safety personnel do not respond to an on-track incident unless instructed by NASCAR in the tower via radio," said NASCAR spokesman Kerry Tharp. "This procedure assures that the other drivers are aware of the incident and the responders are safe to approach the incident scene."

The same would be done with a NA__AR med team

"This assures immediate medical attention," Tharp said. "The driver is administered a complete physical and neurological examination by a board-certified emergency medicine physician. If the examination is negative, he is then cleared to return to racing."

...and this physician is an expert in automobile wreck trauma? Is he/she an orthopedic specialist or is he/she a GP who submitted the lowest bid? Lives next to the track president?

At the infield care center, the driver's treatment is coordinated by a medical liaison appointed by NASCAR who transports driver medical records from track to track, including results of each driver's preseason physical examination and his medical history. Each track also has its own medical director.

"The NASCAR medical liaison team consists of four RNs and three physician consultants," Tharp said. "Our board-certified consulting physicians include a neurosurgeon, an emergency medicine physician and a trauma surgeon. Each one practices their specialty full time and is a medical director or co-medical director for the track where they reside."

NA__AR continues to be very careful to be sure we know responsibility is not a risk to anyone other than the track itself and,, or course, the driver.

NASCAR requires each track to adhere to strict standards of treatment at its infield care center.

...and, in a nutshell, these standards are...? (Reader's Digest version would suffice)

"If the physician at the infield care (center) determines that additional testing is needed, the driver is sent to a local hospital for further evaluation, such as an MRI and/or CT scan," Tharp said. "Before he can return to racing, a driver must be seen and released back to racing by a neurosurgeon with at least five years of experience in sports-related medicine.

BINGO! Tell me how many times we have heard of a driver is released by the track doctors but has to return to Charlotte to Dr. Petty for a full release? Remember Junior four years ago when he suffered a concussion? He got an immediate release by the track doctor and since he was required to return to Charlotte to Dr. Petty for a full release, he managed to remain below the radar for weeks? I content this could have been stopped much more expeditiously by a on-site NA__AR med team.

"Safety is NASCAR's No. 1 priority. The medical liaisons and consulting physicians assure that the medical standards are met. At each NASCAR-sanctioned event, there is a full medical team on site trained in emergency trauma to provide medical services to all of our competitors. The same applies to our safety team, who assures fire, safety, ambulances, etc., adhere to the safety standards."

"Safety is NA__AR's No. 1 priority," when money and/or legalities aren't taken into consideration. Oh, yeah, they're No. 1 another time. Whenever NA__AR loses one of its major tee-shirt sellers.
Kenny Irwin and Adam Petty: "Gee, that's too bad. You have our condolences."
Dale Earnhardt Sr: " Oh my God!!! We have to do something to stop this from EVER happening again!"

But I could be very, very wrong...

[LSC9901]

Bob, Please don't take this as a cynical or sarcastic statement but even if there were a full time team of medical experts, what assurance is there that they are the best ??? How many times have you picked up a newspaper to read that Dr. "X" has been sued for malpractice. All the certificates on the wall proclaim him to be one of the very best and brightest to have ever graduated from "Expensive U. Med School".

I understand your point that those that are doing it now could be second rate volunteer firemen who know how to put air into a tire. You are correct .... air in a tire and O2 administration are completely different.

I don't recall ever hearing the teams complain about this issue. Even after this latest event there was no mention from Jeff about the level of care he was given.

[wingkey1]

Originally Posted by LSC9901

Here is one response to your questions. How true it is could be another entire issue.


ESPN - Medical treatment serious business at NASCAR - Nascar

Good stuff LSC. This seems to represent a framework that might be expected. We kinda expected this existed. We'd likely be surprised at all that is in readiness for these events.

Naturally a qualified, proven, trusted and respected member of the AMA in conjunction with member(s) of the driver/team/owner/etc. community ought well test (and we can be pretty sure they do) to ensure that the execution and accuracy of planning = those required by experienced and potential needs. One (we) needs to be cognzant enough of ones own cerifications in that regard to allow this level of testing to those best experienced to do so.

Gotta believe there is plenty of pressure and associated scrutiny by at the very least the drivers family members. To levels much greater than we the uninvested my require. Know when my boys were doing Quartermidget we would absolutely not participate in open practices at some adjacent States where EMT prescence was not requried by State law (In NJ it was). Believe me, internally generated concern and associated policing is far, far, greater than that that can be imagined or suggested by relative outsiders.

If all is defined and ensured by the traveling crew for the complimentary more local resources to be integrated and applied - sure beats transporting duplicate equipment and expertise venue to venue. Actually in most cases would not be surprised that the depth of ability of the complement of traveling and local resources would likely outstrip anything reasonably transported to each venue by a common contingent.

Oversite and direction by what appears to be a "traveling crew" with individual(s), and (sport) situationally specific ability and information done right (again one for debate/approval amongst those appropriately licensed and experienced) ensures the pre-qual of applied resources. Be funny were I to ask for their definition of standards. Oh me of bandaid and witch hazel certification.

While not at all able to claim knowledge prior to now of the definition/requirements of preparedness, we're not really surprised. Fact is, we'd likely be surprised at the additional depth and knowledge being applied, even though some of the info relative to same would totally lose us.

Sometimes we are guilty of being led to perceive not brain one exists amongst any of the colllective that is NASCAR, sponsors, drivers, teams, owners, track owners, etc. These unfortunately are those of our own "thoughtless" periods.

Good stuff.

[PettyBlue]

Originally Posted by LSC9901

Bob, Please don't take this as a cynical or sarcastic statement but even if there were a full time team of medical experts, what assurance is there that they are the best ??? How many times have you picked up a newspaper to read that Dr. "X" has been sued for malpractice. All the certificates on the wall proclaim him to be one of the very best and brightest to have ever graduated from "Expensive U. Med School".

I understand your point that those that are doing it now could be second rate volunteer firemen who know how to put air into a tire. You are correct .... air in a tire and O2 administration are completely different.

I don't recall ever hearing the teams complain about this issue. Even after this latest event there was no mention from Jeff about the level of care he was given.

I agree 100%.

[Bob Tanner]

Originally Posted by LSC9901

Bob, Please don't take this as a cynical or sarcastic statement but even if there were a full time team of medical experts, what assurance is there that they are the best ??? How many times have you picked up a newspaper to read that Dr. "X" has been sued for malpractice. All the certificates on the wall proclaim him to be one of the very best and brightest to have ever graduated from "Expensive U. Med School".

.

No offense taken. I enjoy having my opinions questioned. It give me reason to explain what I may have missed originally.

"What assurance...?" The "assurance" would be that IF the responsibility (I know, in the 21st Century that is rapidly becoming known as the "R Word, used with the same distaint the F-Bomb and the "N-Word are held in) would be on the overall governing body's shoulders and it would behove them to make sure that only the best of the best rushed to each wreck. Now it's the responsibility of the track and that is one step too low for me.

As to never having heard of this potential problem before, it's been bandied about for about a decade. Just about every year Ryan Newman and Tony Stewart bring it up and some hack writes one article on it, then it goes away.

I stand my ground on this one, mon ami. I feel that it's just the right thing to do, and to do it before it becomes a scandal.

What could it hurt? NA__AR could offset part of the cost of hiring med teams by reducing the price it pays to use the tracks because the track's overhead is reduced.

[PettyBlue]

Bob,drivers and race teams are nothing more than outside contractors to NASCAR.What company in their right mind would take on health care for outside hired help?

[Bob Tanner]

Originally Posted by PettyBlue

Bob,drivers and race teams are nothing more than outside contractors to NASCAR.What company in their right mind would take on health care for outside hired help?

Wow! I am gratified so many ventured past my opening warning. Thanks to all of you.

A company whose contracted help (drivers) are in extremely short supply, extremely hard to almost impossible to instantly replace, as a construction company could replace unskilled labour or even skilled labour. This is due to the fact that the money NA__AR makes off of these contracted drivers is not only because of their driving talents but also their personalities, which NA__AR pushes to the limit.

The benefits to the drivers themselves would just be a sidebar to NA__AR's overall investment.

The situation NA__AR is in is so unique, or so the way I view it, I think trusting the welfare of their stars to a relative unknown quantity is reckless, to say the least.

Or that's the way I see it, but then, as usual, I could be very, very wrong...

[wingkey1]

And then there's:

Would/could/will the traveling contingent always maintain a level of expertise and overall preparedness typically gained and associated with that which is realized by frequency/regularity of applied knowledge, that is consistant with that which may be realized by the effective integration of local resources (e-room, trauma center, etc.) and those specific and focused resources that may be effectively transported to all series venues?

Dang. Glad somebody didn't ask me that. Take me at least three days on WebMD and more to even begin to fake it.

[LSC9901]

Good point Wing and it's possible that there in lies a major reason why there is no permanent medical team. Realistically how many drivers are actually injured to the extent where highly qualified medical personnel are required ?? When that need arises they are generally just a copter ride away.