[Bassdogs]

With all "un" do respect, blaming the inability of the field to beat HMS on cheating is really a tired tired matra. Help me here Bob, all one has to do is go back to the roots of Nascar to understand that the sport has always been about skirting or out right bypassing the rules. Routing fuel hoses thru the roll bars in order to add fuel capacity to the car, packing frame members with ball bearings to meet minimum weight only to release them coming to the green flag, and there are hundreds of other stories from the old greats. Now we have a rule book that seems to be a moving target and teams are found guilty of violations when they have in fact only crossed over a gray area from Nascar's point of view.

The correct statement should be "change the rules" and in short order HMS and specificily the 48 team will again rise to the top while operating with in and in those new gray areas created by the new rules. Damn its tough to be smarter than the other owners / teams!!

[LSC9901]

Bass you are not incorrect but my chief complaint is that from 13th on down is unequivocally eliminated from advancing higher. If you look at the Chase points versus the classic points you will see a difference, granted not a major difference, in who is in what place. If my memory serves me correct a few years ago when Tony was not in the chase he could have advanced to (I think) 4th place in the points. Like it or not that is a big difference.

No doubt HMS will always find a way to "WIN" ... at least until th enext Meag team/organization figures out a new way to win.

[Bassdogs]

The main problem with comparing the stats from the chase finish to the prechase points, is that all you need to do is go back to the pre, pre, points or the points system 20 years ago and you would get a different result. I think you're correct about Tony, didn't he win like 3 or 4 chase races? Since the chase came into affect, there are usually 3 or 4 drivers who end up competing for the championship. Under the old points, about 50% of the time the championship was wrapped up with 3 or 4 races to go. I'm guessing Tony would rather be in the chase with a chance for the championship than worry about ending up 4th instead of 13 under the old system.

There is no "right" answer to this argument, just that what ever system we have is the one they need to stick with. If it were left up to me, I would eliminate about half of the regs, expect them to be race drivers, and then get out of the way. I'd even favor going back to "street" based stock cars, but then we'd be racing front wheeldrives and eventually hybrids. We have the chase and JJ seems to have figured out how to out compete the field.

[Bob Tanner]

Originally Posted by Bassdogs

With all "un" do respect, blaming the inability of the field to beat HMS on cheating is really a tired tired matra. Help me here Bob, all one has to do is go back to the roots of Nascar to understand that the sport has always been about skirting or out right bypassing the rules. Routing fuel hoses thru the roll bars in order to add fuel capacity to the car, packing frame members with ball bearings to meet minimum weight only to release them coming to the green flag, and there are hundreds of other stories from the old greats. Now we have a rule book that seems to be a moving target and teams are found guilty of violations when they have in fact only crossed over a gray area from Nascar's point of view.

The correct statement should be "change the rules" and in short order HMS and specifically the 48 team will again rise to the top while operating with in and in those new gray areas created by the new rules. Damn its tough to be smarter than the other owners / teams!!

On your first paragraph, Bass, you're 100% correct. I can think of hidden gas tanks, roll bars and frame rails made to hold fuel, using 150 feet of fuel line, and the list goes on.

You're also right about the Rule book being a moving target. This is nothing new. Remember the rules which were implemented almost weekly against the Hemi's? How about the ones affecting the Wedge? The Ford OHC, which, at the time Ford introduced it, was legal by any rule NASCAR had in existence at the time. How about the rules specifically aimed at MOPAR which dictated which body style a team could use with which motor?

It all goes back to this misplaced and bastardized ideal of "Parity" which NASCAR and NA__AR both have clung to like some damn security blanket. For some unknow reason NASCAR nor NA__AR has ever figured out that "Parity" too often equals "BORING."

Where I think you and I might split is in the concept of cheating (which is what I can the "Creative engineering" which we often see. It was cute and interesting back in the early days of NASCAR. Smokey Yunick, Maurice Petty, Glenn Dunnaway and Dick Linder were heroes in the eyes of a lot of fans. But NA__AR is now a for-real big time professional sport and is above such games. To allow cheating with a wink and a nod just degrades NA__AR even more than it already is and lowers its credibility factor even lower.

I agree with your second paragraph, in the the cream will always rise to the top. The only problem with the current set up is NA__AR is allowing the "Cream" an extra floatation factor with a number of its wrong-headed (My feeling) rules. Chosen 35, refusal to fully penalize the marquee teams, and giving "certain team" a chance for input into future rule changes (see recent "Town Meeting article).

Without a doubt a Hendrick, Roush, Penske, RCR or Gibbs team will rise to the top. That's just the way NA__AR has stacked the deck.

I don't think NA__AR especially wants Johnson to win the championship this season. They would much rather it be Junior but he's somewhere in a zip code far removed from today's racing. I honestly don't think NA__AR actually has a horse in the race but they've worked on the track so that a select number of horses are heavily favored.

[Bassdogs]

I agree, cheating was when MWR slopped some kind of Jell in the intake manifold but IMHO it was creative engineering when Chad bumped out a small section of the front fender that was not covered by the templet. Its hard to argue that something is cheating when there is no violation of ANY rule. But then I digress. I personally think the "speeding before the loop in the pits" was brilliant.

Now a Question from the historians: In regard to the top 35 rule, were there ever any situations when a top team wrecked or blew up during qualification and DID NOT START THE RACE? I know there were situations when one didn't qualify, but with the old provisional rule they got to start anyway.

[Bob Tanner]

Originally Posted by Bassdogs

I agree, cheating was when MWR slopped some kind of Jell in the intake manifold but IMHO it was creative engineering when Chad bumped out a small section of the front fender that was not covered by the templet. Its hard to argue that something is cheating when there is no violation of ANY rule. But then I digress. I personally think the "speeding before the loop in the pits" was brilliant.

Now a Question from the historians: In regard to the top 35 rule, were there ever any situations when a top team wrecked or blew up during qualification and DID NOT START THE RACE? I know there were situations when one didn't qualify, but with the old provisional rule they got to start anyway.

Para 1: If an administrative body leaves a loophole, I can kinda of go along with that but there is still a thing such as "Intent of the law (rule)." Working these loopholes is, to me, too close to cheating. It reminds me of lying by omission. For example, you ask a car salesman if the car you are looking at has been serviced regularly. He answers "yes," but doesn't tell you that in it's last service it was found the transmission was slipping, which has now been rectified by adding sawdust to the transmission lubricant.

It's deception to gain a questionable unfair advantage and I, personally, don't like it in the highest level of sport.

Para 2: To my knowledge the only time a team in the Chosen 35 did not start a race was at the beginning of the season when a top 35 team had left the sport during the off season.

Under the previous system I believe Kyle Petty missed a couple races as did Dave Marcis, because he they had used up their allotted number of provisional starts prior to the time frame when they were allotted more provisional starts. The only other time a team with provisionals did not start a race was Alan Kulwicki's team in 1993.

I disliked the old system but, in hindsight, I swear it was superior to the pee-poor Chosen 35 Rule they have today!