[MikeRaceDayTek]

Originally Posted by clutch

Absolutely agree Bob.........ownership was given to Smoke and while Hendrick may have respect for him....we have yet to see whether Tony weilds any real power

Just a quick second thought here. Do we have posts from when the Roush/Yates technical alliance was formed asking the same questions?? I only ask because basically that give the "cat in the hat" 8 teams. Just figured I would ask.

[Bob Tanner]

Originally Posted by MikeRaceDayTek

Just a quick second thought here. Do we have posts from when the Roush/Yates technical alliance was formed asking the same questions?? I only ask because basically that give the "cat in the hat" 8 teams. Just figured I would ask.

Oh yes. If you go back and look at some of the posts I've made about Yates, I have argued vehemently that it is nothing but an extension of Roush (much to the chagrin of the loyal Yates fans). It isn't uncommon for me to use the term Roush/Yates or to refer to Roush's seven teams (#'s 6, 16,17,26,99, 98 and 96)

In fact, Yates/Roush is even more of a travesty because they come within a few yards of actually sharing work space!

This "working alliance" crap is every bit as much of a joke as the idea that Mark Martin actually was owner of the #17 team and Jeffie actually has ownership rule over the #48. What a joke!

The most irritating thing about the entire mess is I believe NA__AR actually believe the fans believe this four cars per owner and team ownership dribble. Like our Imperial federal Government, NA__AR apparently believes that it's followers are merely the "Unwashed masses" who are incapable of independent thought and are unable to understand what is plainly in front of their faces!

[nascaraddict]

I know that Stewart Hass has help from Hendrick. And I know that Tony is kicking butt the first year out of the gate so far; something that I said would never happen.... please don't rub that one in my face... But I still think that it's way too early for that team to start looking for a third wheel to add on.

The ink on the team contract is still wet, for crying out loud. Give at least another year or two before you add on a "phenom of the moment"... or a guy that's fed up with his them... or worse yet, a guy that had his team gone off and dumped him.

[MikeRaceDayTek]

Originally Posted by Bob Tanner

Oh yes. If you go back and look at some of the posts I've made about Yates, I have argued vehemently that it is nothing but an extension of Roush (much to the chagrin of the loyal Yates fans). It isn't uncommon for me to use the term Roush/Yates or to refer to Roush's seven teams (#'s 6, 16,17,26,99, 98 and 96)

In fact, Yates/Roush is even more of a travesty because they come within a few yards of actually sharing work space!

This "working alliance" crap is every bit as much of a joke as the idea that Mark Martin actually was owner of the #17 team and Jeffie actually has ownership rule over the #48. What a joke!

The most irritating thing about the entire mess is I believe NA__AR actually believe the fans believe this four cars per owner and team ownership dribble. Like our Imperial federal Government, NA__AR apparently believes that it's followers are merely the "Unwashed masses" who are incapable of independent thought and are unable to understand what is plainly in front of their faces!

Belive it or not, I do agree with you. I hate the fact that all these teams are in bed together. It annoys me to no end, for a few different reasons. And I really hated hearing Tony refer to Jeffie and Jimmie as "my teammates". They are not. They are running equipment that came from the same place, but do you think that for one second they would hesitate to dump you if it would help them win a championship? Heck no.

My personal opinion is still the same. If a driver, complete with sponsorship is dumped in his lap, then yeah, sign em up. But Tony's priority right now should be cutting the HMS umbilical cord, building and maintaining his own chassis and engine departments, and seeing if he is still competitive.

[Bob Tanner]

Originally Posted by MikeRaceDayTek

Belive it or not, I do agree with you. I hate the fact that all these teams are in bed together. It annoys me to no end, for a few different reasons. And I really hated hearing Tony refer to Jeffie and Jimmie as "my teammates". They are not. They are running equipment that came from the same place, but do you think that for one second they would hesitate to dump you if it would help them win a championship? Heck no.

My personal opinion is still the same. If a driver, complete with sponsorship is dumped in his lap, then yeah, sign em up. But Tony's priority right now should be cutting the HMS umbilical cord, building and maintaining his own chassis and engine departments, and seeing if he is still competitive.

I don't find it strange at all that you agree with me, basically. I believe most race fans harbor feelings similar to what I hold. But NA__AR prefers to pander to the group DOF calls "Driver Fan Boys," and that group sees very little wrong with NA__AR Cup having only 4-5 competitive teams, just as long as "Their driver" drives for one of them. Of course, for the most part if "Their driver" drove for a smaller Non Chosen team, he wouldn't be successful and would probably just cease being "Their driver."

It is a shame so few haven't been fans long enough to remember the days when Big Bill's Two-Teams-Per-Owner edict was firmly in place and worked extremely well. There are only a handful of us who remember what Karl Kiekhaeffer almost did to the sport with he fleet of Chrysler 300's and Dodges, his signing drivers to contracts which gave him control of not only their driving but their personal lives and his leasing race tracks for "practice" almost right up to the time qualifications were to begin.

Until someone proves me wrong I will always believe that the current sad state of NA__AR began in the late 80's when Bill Jr. and The felon conspired to bust Bill Bill's two team rule, and when NA__AR got into the race car redesign business.

I really believe that Hendrick is solidly in SHR's camp and if Smoke should purposely "dump" one of his [Hendrick] "team mates," he would have to explain to Rick why he did so. I also believe it would only slightly less so if one of the cars run out of HMS garage should happen to purposely nail a SHR car.

I believe Tony is hesitant to have Kahne break his contract with Gillett but rather is willing to wait a year but my money is that Kasey Kahne will be a SHR driver in 2011.

[nascaraddict]

I don't remember a time when Bill had a two team edict. But I think that all of us remember when there was a three team limit. Then Hendrick and Roush blew that right of the water.

"Rules... What rules? Who needs rules for? They just stand in the way of progress."

That's the mindset of those two teams.

[Quality88]

Originally Posted by nascaraddict

I don't remember a time when Bill had a two team edict. But I think that all of us remember when there was a three team limit. Then Hendrick and Roush blew that right of the water.

"Rules... What rules? Who needs rules for? They just stand in the way of progress."

That's the mindset of those two teams.

Bill Sr had the 2 team limit, Bill Jr raised the limit.

[Bob Tanner]

Originally Posted by Quality88

Bill Sr had the 2 team limit, Bill Jr raised the limit.

Yep. Big Bill put it in place in 1957 and, to my knowledge, it was busted only a handful of time (by Holman-Moody in 1965, and they got by with it by operating one car out of a completely separate garage, owned by their driver, Dick Hutcherson. This opration was run by Hutcherson and Eddie Pagan and was basically the same set up as Hutcherson used in the old IMCA circuit. He was affiliated with Holman-Moody only by a coop situation with FoMoCo. Bill Sr. ordered them to cease and desist late in the season. Bobby Johns left H-M to drive for his brother and Hutcherson-Pagan merged with H-M with Dick's team mate was freedy Lorenzen. Or, at least that's the way I think it went down, to my best recollection. If I'm off a little, don't shoot me. My memory isn't what it once was.) until 1987 when Bill Jr. and The Felon conspired for Hendrick to have a third team with DW and Tide. Bill Jr. allowed Rick to "sell" the #25 team to his dad, thus still allowing Rick to have the limit of two teams. Roush followed by "selling" his new team to his wife.

I know most think Bill Jr. was a hero who built NASCAR to its present size but I will continue to think that he's the guy who started the ruination of NASCAR, selling out to the most powerful team owners and sponsors and turning NASCAR into the joke it presently is, NA__AR.

[Robertdjr]

Originally Posted by Bob Tanner

I really believe that Hendrick is solidly in SHR's camp and if Smoke should purposely "dump" one of his [Hendrick] "team mates," he would have to explain to Rick why he did so. I also believe it would only slightly less so if one of the cars run out of HMS garage should happen to purposely nail a SHR car.

Since SHR is in bed with HMS, I'd think if Smoke expands, he'd take Brad Keselowski. That keeps everything together and in the family, so to speak, for whatever future plans Rick has for later on. Besides, Brad is one heck of a race car driver. Better than Junior, dare I say.

[OregonSHRFan]

Im glad SHR isnt set to expand to 3 teams next year. When all the chatter was about Harvick leaving RCR, I was "hoping" he would land at SHR.

Tony is the first to say that SHR landed in his lap, he wasn't looking to own a NASCAR team. But I don't believe he is there JUST because of Rick Hendrick. Tony has had other race teams in other forms of racing and they are quite successful. He knows what he is doing.
To say that he is merely Rick Hendrick's puppet, my reply is no way Tony would put himself in a position to be anyones puppet. When the time is right (a driver he wants who can come to SHR with sponsorship in hand), there will be a third and maybe fourth team at SHR.

[Bob Tanner]

Originally Posted by OregonSHRFan

Im glad SHR isnt set to expand to 3 teams next year. When all the chatter was about Harvick leaving RCR, I was "hoping" he would land at SHR.

Tony is the first to say that SHR landed in his lap, he wasn't looking to own a NASCAR team. But I don't believe he is there JUST because of Rick Hendrick. Tony has had other race teams in other forms of racing and they are quite successful. He knows what he is doing.
To say that he is merely Rick Hendrick's puppet, my reply is no way Tony would put himself in a position to be anyones puppet. When the time is right (a driver he wants who can come to SHR with sponsorship in hand), there will be a third and maybe fourth team at SHR.

Obviously you are a Stewart fan. As a personal disclosure, he's one of the ones I don't mind seeing win, even in his current position. Smoke is one Hell of a driver and his versatility is something which I don't think enough is made of. A master of Indy cars, sprint cars, Silver Crown cars and midgets. It truly takes a driver with special talents to succeed in all those venues.

I sincerely would like to see him succeed, especially on his own merits. His success as an USAC owner is notable but he's playing in an entirely different league with NA__AR. I would like to see him grow, start his own engine operation and become a competitor of Hendrick, and NOT a satellite operation.

I will agree with you on one thing, Hendrick isn't the main reason Tony is where he's currently at, This has been his plan all along, following in A.J. footsteps. As early as 2001 or 2002 Tony made statements about his plan to one day become a Cup team owner.

I think being a "puppet" might be too strong of a term but I honestly believe that Rick Hendrick has a measurable degree of power at SHR. The fact alone that he can deliver not-so-good engines to SHR with just a snap of his finger if something SHR did displeases him just makes sense. The seemingly simple and painless way Darian Grubb switched from HMS to SHR is another example of what I believe to be some sort of collusion.

I don't know if it meets "Conspiracy theory" criteria but, to me, it smacks of an incestuous relationship.

I seriously doubt if you agree with me. So be it. People can always agree to disagree.

[Miz+Zou]

I thought he should of gone for it but i agree right now is not the time to focus on things like this that was a experinced move.

[OregonSHRFan]

Bob,
I agree about Tony growing SHR to include building his own engines and chassis'. I believe eventually, they will. It wouldn't surprise me if he's been working behind the scenes on JGR's engine builder, Mark Cronquist. I think that CNC Haas racing was getting their chassis' and engines from HMS. The results SHR are getting, specifically Tony, with the "same equipment", is because of the change in personnel, namely Bobby Hutchens. Bobby coming to SHR was all Tony.
Collusion in NASCAR? Big time!!! All the time!!! Been that way for years and I don't see it stopping any time soon.

I never mind disagreeing, but usually like to find a way to point out atleast a small piece of common ground.

[Bob Tanner]

Originally Posted by OregonSHRFan

Bob,
I agree about Tony growing SHR to include building his own engines and chassis'. I believe eventually, they will. It wouldn't surprise me if he's been working behind the scenes on JGR's engine builder, Mark Cronquist. I think that CNC Haas racing was getting their chassis' and engines from HMS. The results SHR are getting, specifically Tony, with the "same equipment", is because of the change in personnel, namely Bobby Hutchens. Bobby coming to SHR was all Tony.
Collusion in NASCAR? Big time!!! All the time!!! Been that way for years and I don't see it stopping any time soon.

I never mind disagreeing, but usually like to find a way to point out atleast a small piece of common ground.

It would appear that we are of like mind. I don't know about Conquist though but it's an interesting and plausible thought.

Here is another angle that I have yet to see mentioned anywhere: This is Denny Hamlin's last year on his contract with JGR. I have thought for two season's that Hamlin was in the market to make a move and I don't think Shrub's arrival at Gibbs has made his situation any better. Denny and Smoke have a good history together. I still think Kasey is Tony's next acquisition but then I think Kahne might also want to be a future team owner as, Like Tony, he also owns a successful USAC/Outlaw team operation. But I think Hamlin might figure into the mix also?

[OregonSHRFan]

I don't see Denny on Tony's short list. Not sure why, just don't.
I really hadn't thought too much about Kasey being on it either but it does make sense.
I do see Harvick on it. Tony and Harvick are good buds. Tony understands Harvick like no one else, not even RC understands him like Tony.
Jamie Mc was mentioned earlier too. I don't see that happening either.
I really thought Truex with his Bass Pro Shop sponsorship was headed to SHR because of Tony's relationship with BPS. It will be interesting to see how he fares at MWR.
Maybe the next SHR driver will surprise us all and come from Nationwide or Trucks. That would really be a story.