[Gotham Dark Knight]

Originally Posted by WhiskeyTangoFoxtrot

What about Cal Ripken and the Tony Gwynn? Certainly, those guys were heroes to many and always in the same public spotlight. They never were knocked down, at least not that I can recall.

My point is that while Bonds & Co were built up and subsequently torn down, it was not for some rabid sense of entertainment. I think a lot of emotions are flowing into this subject, but what it boils down to is integrity.

I disagree about the fans being blind. The fans know what happened in '95-'05, and I think we've accepted the fact that we were all on the bandwagon. How many people say that they couldn't watch Big Mac vs. Sosa because it was morally depriving? Not me. I was all about it.

But when the initial buzz turned into a hangover, the mistakes were realized. When the issue caught fire, there was a collective notion that baseball isn't about just hitting home runs. Perhaps it brought in the casual fan looking to cure boredom, but there is so much more to it for anyone who truly cares about baseball.

So there they were, caught in the middle. Do you really think that if those guys stood up before congress and told the truth that they would all be blacklisted? No way. They all made a choice to defend a lie, and act like there was nothing wrong. And right there, when every single baseball fan (outside of San Francisco) was looking to start over and move forward, they took the easy way out and perpetuated the BS.

They would have been heroes.

Now see WTF your argument is sensible...and well thought out...I can respect that...

But lets look at it...Gwynn and Ripken I would say are the expections that prove the rule...but I could be wrong...it could be an even split...having said that, would that all heroes were the Ripken and Gywnn version, but they are not...

Now about the mistakes...say the fans realized it...hoping that it all went away quietly was no cure...neither was taking Big Mac and giving him a 29% vote for the Hall...

...and did Mac and company owe Congress anything?...perhaps...but where was the fan base saying, "hey, we stood by them when we knew better, we urged them on, but now, before Congress, we wanted to wash our hands of it all"...come on?...that's fair?...we made them heroes and then hung them out to dry in front of Congress and the World?...which begs the question, if Bud Selig makes millions upon millions for being the commish, why was Congress involved?...where was Selig?...Why was ne not next to the big three defending them every step of the way?...

Is Bonds, Sosa etc tainted?...sure...but I am no hypocrite...I accepted my tainted heroes then...I will stand by them now...warts and all, I help create them...I will stand by them...I would cheer Bonds hitting 756...why not?...haven't seen the steroid that improved contact with the ball yet...

Big Mac...Mac missed trying for 50 homers back in 1988 to see the birth of his kid, Mac signed on with St.Louis for less than he was worth, Mac walked away from it when he could no longer perform at a level he felt he should have...and Mac brought back baseball...and what do we wish to remember?...that he took the 5th before Congress?...that's it?...that's what his HOF vote is based on?...Hypocrites all...would that the writers live by the same moral code they wish to impart on thier fallen heroes...or at least have the resolve to stand by what they were a part of....

[LSC9901]

Originally Posted by Gotham Dark Knight

Now see WTF your argument is sensible...and well thought out...I can respect that...

But lets look at it...Gwynn and Ripken I would say are the expections that prove the rule...but I could be wrong...it could be an even split...having said that, would that all heroes were the Ripken and Gywnn version, but they are not...

Now about the mistakes...say the fans realized it...hoping that it all went away quietly was no cure...neither was taking Big Mac and giving him a 29% vote for the Hall...

...and did Mac and company owe Congress anything?...perhaps...but where was the fan base saying, "hey, we stood by them when we knew better, we urged them on, but now, before Congress, we wanted to wash our hands of it all"...come on?...that's fair?...we made them heroes and then hung them out to dry in front of Congress and the World?...which begs the question, if Bud Selig makes millions upon millions for being the commish, why was Congress involved?...where was Selig?...Why was ne not next to the big three defending them every step of the way?...

Is Bonds, Sosa etc tainted?...sure...but I am no hypocrite...I accepted my tainted heroes then...I will stand by them now...warts and all, I help create them...I will stand by them...I would cheer Bonds hitting 756...why not?...haven't seen the steroid that improved contact with the ball yet...

Big Mac...Mac missed trying for 50 homers back in 1988 to see the birth of his kid, Mac signed on with St.Louis for less than he was worth, Mac walked away from it when he could no longer perform at a level he felt he should have...and Mac brought back baseball...and what do we wish to remember?...that he took the 5th before Congress?...that's it?...that's what his HOF vote is based on?...Hypocrites all...would that the writers live by the same moral code they wish to impart on thier fallen heroes...or at least have the resolve to stand by what they were a part of....

Goth I agree with your assessment of Big Mac .....but, but ..... it's negativism that makes headlines. You can be the best person in the world for you entire life except for one day. If you're a public figure you need to know that one bad day is going to stand out far more and far longer than any good/great days you may have had. Very few get to bask in the glory of a lifetime of achievement when they've had just one un-glorious day.

[WhiskeyTangoFoxtrot]

Originally Posted by Gotham Dark Knight

...and did Mac and company owe Congress anything?...perhaps...but where was the fan base saying, "hey, we stood by them when we knew better, we urged them on, but now, before Congress, we wanted to wash our hands of it all"...come on?...that's fair?...we made them heroes and then hung them out to dry in front of Congress and the World?...which begs the question, if Bud Selig makes millions upon millions for being the commish, why was Congress involved?...where was Selig?...Why was ne not next to the big three defending them every step of the way?...

Did we really know better? Or was it after the fact, when the dust settled that it all made sense?

When the hysteria died down, that's when we figured out we weren't really watching some great rejuvenation of MLB. Initially, the sense of betrayal fell upon those in the spotlight.

We expected them to come clean, so we could get to the real problem: (Here is where you and I totally agree) Selig and the Owners are the real crooks. If there was ever a chance for the players to bring that out, it was in front of congress.

In truth, baseball never went anywhere. That's the fabrication the owners and the MLB admin told the media, who in turn told us. Ratings and attendance fell to NBA, NFL, NCAA etc, but was the league in any serious trouble? They wanted their money - at the expense of the players and the fans. When the players, led by the testimony to congress, sided with the owners et al, the fans and media dumped them.

Hopefully some of this makes sense. I just got back on the coffee bandwagon and I'm WIRED. Wooohooo.

[Gotham Dark Knight]

Originally Posted by WhiskeyTangoFoxtrot

Did we really know better? Or was it after the fact, when the dust settled that it all made sense?

When the hysteria died down, that's when we figured out we weren't really watching some great rejuvenation of MLB. Initially, the sense of betrayal fell upon those in the spotlight.

We expected them to come clean, so we could get to the real problem: (Here is where you and I totally agree) Selig and the Owners are the real crooks. If there was ever a chance for the players to bring that out, it was in front of congress.

In truth, baseball never went anywhere. That's the fabrication the owners and the MLB admin told the media, who in turn told us. Ratings and attendance fell to NBA, NFL, NCAA etc, but was the league in any serious trouble? They wanted their money - at the expense of the players and the fans. When the players, led by the testimony to congress, sided with the owners et al, the fans and media dumped them.

Hopefully some of this makes sense. I just got back on the coffee bandwagon and I'm WIRED. Wooohooo.

well Brady Anderson suddenly hits 50...Brady freakin Anderson!...teams start breaking the team homer record left and right...what did we think was happening?...you go between Maris to Fielder with only George Foster dinging +50, and then everyone and there mother is hitting +50...Camanetti bulks up Hulk size...I mean come on...we "chose" not to believe...

Way did we say, "Hey now wait a minute, this is Brady "Freakin" Anderson breaking the Oriole record"...more than Frank Robinson, Boog Powell, Eddie Murray, Brook Robinson, Cal Ripken...helloooo....what did we think was happening????

[WhiskeyTangoFoxtrot]

One explanation at the time was the suppossed breakthroughs in "Athletic Management." Training programs, off-season work, improvements in technique and nutrition, etc etc. Along with lax pitching and smaller ballparks, everyone (present company included) ate this crap up.

That's what I remember, at least.

I was playing high school ball for a good portion of this "era" and we figured these guys were just working harder in every respect with cutting edge technique/technology. Hell, I put in more hours weight training for baseball than I did football.

Looking back, it's easy to say "Well, no @#$! they were all roiders" but at the time it was easy to be naive.

[Gotham Dark Knight]

Originally Posted by WhiskeyTangoFoxtrot

One explanation at the time was the suppossed breakthroughs in "Athletic Management." Training programs, off-season work, improvements in technique and nutrition, etc etc. Along with lax pitching and smaller ballparks, everyone (present company included) ate this crap up.

That's what I remember, at least.

I was playing high school ball for a good portion of this "era" and we figured these guys were just working harder in every respect with cutting edge technique/technology. Hell, I put in more hours weight training for baseball than I did football.

Looking back, it's easy to say "Well, no @#$! they were all roiders" but at the time it was easy to be naive.

We ate it up cause we wanted to...But take Anderson whom I remember that season...he jumped from a high of 21 to 50 overnight (16 the previous year)...no doubt a hard worker, and yeah ball parks were getting smaller etc...but he jumped 34 homers overnight!...he broke every rule of thumb statistically including looking at the doubles he was hitting up to that point and converting some of that over into homers due to maturity and bulk etc...

Along the same time Caminiti comes along as a slight built 185 lbs hitting 13 homers a year...and then over night, he has the square jaw, bulging neck and built of a body builder on sterioids and he goes up to 40 homers...

I mean, come on...nobodies were jacking the ball past all the old HOFer...and no one thought...huh? its funny?...In 1987, the ball was flying out of the park and right away we were testing balls to see if they were "juiced"....suddenly its 1995 or 1996 and the ball is flying at an even greater rate and on one questions it?...

We wanted to believe it, and we didn't care to check into it...it was good for the game and fun for the fan...

So yeah, hindsight is 20/20...but we wanted to believe it then...and when the love affair soured...like jilted lovers we wanted someone to nail to a cross...

[LSC9901]

Originally Posted by WhiskeyTangoFoxtrot

One explanation at the time was the suppossed breakthroughs in "Athletic Management." Training programs, off-season work, improvements in technique and nutrition, etc etc. Along with lax pitching and smaller ballparks, everyone (present company included) ate this crap up.

That's what I remember, at least.

I was playing high school ball for a good portion of this "era" and we figured these guys were just working harder in every respect with cutting edge technique/technology. Hell, I put in more hours weight training for baseball than I did football.

Looking back, it's easy to say "Well, no @#$! they were all roiders" but at the time it was easy to be naive.

Here's another thought. We all want to be able to tell our grandchildren that "Yeah I saw him hit the one that broke the record 39 years ago".

[Lefty Noob]

Bonds hit #741 yesterday, a three-run homer in the first inning that game in San Fran's 6-4 win over L.A.

"I think he got it off the end of the bat," Dodgers pitcher Randy Wolf told reporters afterwards. "When he hit it, I really didn't think it was going to be a home run. I've given up quite a few to know what they sound like, but he's a guy with kind of superhuman power and he doesn't always need to hit it perfectly."

[Gotham Dark Knight]

Originally Posted by Lefty Noob

Bonds hit #741 yesterday, a three-run homer in the first inning that game in San Fran's 6-4 win over L.A.

"I think he got it off the end of the bat," Dodgers pitcher Randy Wolf told reporters afterwards. "When he hit it, I really didn't think it was going to be a home run. I've given up quite a few to know what they sound like, but he's a guy with kind of superhuman power and he doesn't always need to hit it perfectly."

See I was sooo torn on this ....yes I needed Bond's homer on GTG, but he screwed up my team ERA and WHIP in the process cause I had poor Randy Wolf...but okay, "Yeah!...keep them flying Barry!"...

[bears9]

Originally Posted by Gotham Dark Knight

Would it have been a different story had it been Sammy Sosa in Cubs pinstripes?...Give the devil his due...Sosa had his summers in the sun, and I do not think he is any less guilty then Bonds.

i hate Sammy too ny on juice like sammy or barry oeark mcgwire if A-Rod Ryan Howard or Derek Lee some1 who is clean it would b a different story

[Lefty Noob]

Bonds hit another dinger today, #744 on his career. He's now just 11 away from Aaron.
Phillies vs. Giants Recap - Yahoo! Sports

[bears9]

crap Barry Bonds

[MJHMarc]

Originally Posted by Lefty Noob

Bonds hit another dinger today, #744 on his career. He's now just 11 away from Aaron.
Phillies vs. Giants Recap - Yahoo! Sports

Bonds is heating up.

Watch-Out!

[Gibbs Is God 28]

Originally Posted by ThePundit

Actually, there's a lot of evidence. Does his girlfriend's recollections mean anything to you? And how about all of the BALCO packages he received and the fact that Greg Anderson (pictured below) was with him 24 hours a day?

Hold on Pundit. Does Jose Canseco's recollections mean anything to you or anyone for that fact? NO. So why would Bond's girlfriend's recollections mean anything to anyone. She's mad because he left her and she's looking for money. How many times can i say theres been absolutely no proof about him taking steroids. Straight Ignorance. I can't wait for him to break the record.

[Gibbs Is God 28]

Also, even if he does take steriods.. (hypathetically speaking).. that wouldn't help him make contact with the ball. Hank Aaron has also said that. It takes extreme talent to hit 744 homeruns on the juice or not. This man deserves to break the record and first ballet hall of fame inductee.