[LSC9901]

Age wise there is 11 years difference between the two of them. If A-Rod keeps up a half decent game he'll surely surpass him.

[bears9]

i hate to sound like a certain Chicago sports write(Jay Marroitti) but i wish this would just go away

[Gotham Dark Knight]

Originally Posted by bears9

i hate to sound like a certain Chicago sports write(Jay Marroitti) but i wish this would just go away

Would it have been a different story had it been Sammy Sosa in Cubs pinstripes?...Give the devil his due...Sosa had his summers in the sun, and I do not think he is any less guilty then Bonds.

[LSC9901]

Originally Posted by Gotham Dark Knight

Would it have been a different story had it been Sammy Sosa in Cubs pinstripes?...Give the devil his due...Sosa had his summers in the sun, and I do not think he is any less guilty then Bonds.

Guilty ??? Guilty of hitting home runs ??? I don't understand !!!! Someone please explain

[Gotham Dark Knight]

Originally Posted by LSC9901

Guilty ??? Guilty of hitting home runs ??? I don't understand !!!! Someone please explain

now, now LSC youknow what I am talking about...both Bonds and Sosa came into the league looking like wide receivers and some how they both end up looking like 250 lb linebackers...I am sure the way they hit homers has something in common...

[WhiskeyTangoFoxtrot]

I don't know of many who would disagree that Sosa is a more likable figure than Bonds, but his downfall in Chicago showed his true colors. I remember reading a huge ESPN Mag article on Sammy when he was walking out the door their, and he's not much different from Bonds as far as Donkeys are concerned.

I lost all respect for him after the Corky incident.

So, if Corky were in Bonds' spot, I'd still be talking about A-Rod.

Kind of sad, isn't it?

[Gotham Dark Knight]

Originally Posted by WhiskeyTangoFoxtrot

I don't know of many who would disagree that Sosa is a more likable figure than Bonds, but his downfall in Chicago showed his true colors. I remember reading a huge ESPN Mag article on Sammy when he was walking out the door their, and he's not much different from Bonds as far as Donkeys are concerned.

I lost all respect for him after the Corky incident.

So, if Corky were in Bonds' spot, I'd still be talking about A-Rod.

Kind of sad, isn't it?

I like all three... ...no one can tell me that since the dawn of time (or baseball) that players haven't bent the rules to get an edge...Norm Cash fab 1961 season, cork bat the whole year...Whitey Ford cut up the baseball with a ring...Gaylord Perry's pitches were never clean...etc...OBb Gibson threw at batters head all the time (tell me that's in the rule books)...

...and attitude?...neither Bonds or Sosa can hold a candle to the nasty Ty Cobb...Steve Carlton didn't talk to the press...Ted Williams was not all that lovey with the press either...

But hey, all of a sudden its, lets get on Barry and Sammy etc...

[Lefty Noob]

Originally Posted by Gotham Dark Knight

...and attitude?...neither Bonds or Sosa can hold a candle to the nasty Ty Cobb...Steve Carlton didn't talk to the press...Ted Williams was not all that lovey with the press either...

But hey, all of a sudden its, lets get on Barry and Sammy etc...

I always think it's funny - and maybe I'm just reading it wrong, but... - it always seems like you pull out that Ty Cobb defense as though basing Barry means the person doesn't hate Cobb. I know for a fact it's possible to dislike the way both guys carried themselves, because I don't really care for either one of them!

[Gotham Dark Knight]

Originally Posted by Lefty Noob

I always think it's funny - and maybe I'm just reading it wrong, but... - it always seems like you pull out that Ty Cobb defense as though basing Barry means the person doesn't hate Cobb. I know for a fact it's possible to dislike the way both guys carried themselves, because I don't really care for either one of them!

You are reading it wrong...no one has to like Cobb...but the man is in the HOF...his attitude was in part what made him the player he was...To be truly great at something you need a level of selfishness and ego...people like Ted Williams had it...In batting practice, he would hit the ball spewing out the mantra " I am bleeping Ted Williams (crack!), I am bleeping Ted Williams (smack!)..."...

What did Leo say, "Nice guys finish last?"...

The attitude has always been woven into the fabric of the game...but it's a PC/vritual world...and all of a sudden it's the in thing to hate Barry, Sosa, Big Mac whomever...

Same game man...same game...

[WhiskeyTangoFoxtrot]

Blah, Ty Cobb let it all hang out and didn't hide anything. If someone made an accusation on him, he'd probably admit to the truth, or beat the hell out of whoever made it up.

If Barry came out tomorrow and said, "Hey you know what, I did this and that... but who didn't? I did what I had to do to keep the edge," then I would instantly take him off my S-list. That would take guts. What was the last thing Barry did that took guts?

Instead he goes on living a lie. Therefor I will treat him like a liar. He acts like he's some kind of victim. Please. It's like feeling sorry for Michael Jackson's face. He's in a world of his own making.

[Gotham Dark Knight]

Originally Posted by WhiskeyTangoFoxtrot

Blah, Ty Cobb let it all hang out and didn't hide anything. If someone made an accusation on him, he'd probably admit to the truth, or beat the hell out of whoever made it up.

If Barry came out tomorrow and said, "Hey you know what, I did this and that... but who didn't? I did what I had to do to keep the edge," then I would instantly take him off my S-list. That would take guts. What was the last thing Barry did that took guts?

Instead he goes on living a lie. Therefor I will treat him like a liar. He acts like he's some kind of victim. Please. It's like feeling sorry for Michael Jackson's face. He's in a world of his own making.

So, lets see, Baseball is looking for a fall guy for what half of the league did and what the Commish let happen on his watch for the good of the game, and Bonds should volunteer to be the scape goat why?...

Is he lying?...yep...

But hey, who is embracing tell all Jose Canseco?...+440 dingers...came clean about the whole thing...when is he getting in the Hall of Fame?...

It's all subjective man...there is no clear standard for any of it...is what I am saying...so lets not say there is a "moral standard of sort, where none exists"...

BTW, Cobb lived in a world that was not sooo PC...he could probably had punched a freakin writer on the nose, and the commish would probably have said "that SOB had it coming"...Bonds looks at a teammate cross eyed and its front page news...

I am all for stringing up Barry if and when they string up the rest of the league...if not, let the man play the game... and give him his due...

BTW, a commish that looked the other way and has done nothing about the problem, should at least not be freakin two face about it...show up and support what you help create...

[WhiskeyTangoFoxtrot]

I pretty much agree with all of that. I don't think Bonds should be THE fall guy for steroids in baseball. But don't expect me, or anyone else, to give him an ounce of respect for breaking any records.

If it were Sosa, I'd feel the same way. Heck, even for Big Mac (who I used to idolize during the Bash Bro's era). Look at Palmeiro.

I don't blame any of them for using steroids, but I do blame them for being cowards. All these guys had a chance to stand up and tell the truth, and put an end to it. Instead, they all tried to preserve they're not-so-little-secret. At least Canseco came clean (which ironically turned him a nice profit, go figure).

There's a reason Barry will get booed if he breaks the record on the road... and it ain't the 'roids and it ain't the media. It's character.

[vincesanity82]

My question is this: Will Bud Selig be at the game when Barry does break the record, 'cause undoubtedly he will this year the way hes been batting. And will Bud recognize his achievement. I think barry still could have beaten the record without steroids it just would have taken him 2 0r 3 years longer. Steroids give you strength but that doesnt mean I can juice up to high heaven and be able to hit a ball out of a mlb ballpark. maybe I could but the point is you have still have to be able to hit a 95mph fastball with a good swing technique. That said, I would have respected Barry,sosa, and mac if they would have man'd up and told the truth. They are all good players without the roids or they wouldnt been good before they juiced up or now(excluding mac since he no longer plays). same way with pete rose he finally told the truth about betting on games and I think he should be in cooperstown, his stats show that. Sadly Barry will never fess up to it because then the record would be tarnished and then people would say the home runs while he was juiced dont count. But if he wants to live the lie to get further into the record books thats his perogative, he has to live with his own conscience. Even though I hate the yankees I would be more willing to except A-Rod breaking the record which with his age he still may do in the future..

[Gotham Dark Knight]

Originally Posted by WhiskeyTangoFoxtrot

I pretty much agree with all of that. I don't think Bonds should be THE fall guy for steroids in baseball. But don't expect me, or anyone else, to give him an ounce of respect for breaking any records.

If it were Sosa, I'd feel the same way. Heck, even for Big Mac (who I used to idolize during the Bash Bro's era). Look at Palmeiro.

I don't blame any of them for using steroids, but I do blame them for being cowards. All these guys had a chance to stand up and tell the truth, and put an end to it. Instead, they all tried to preserve they're not-so-little-secret. At least Canseco came clean (which ironically turned him a nice profit, go figure).

There's a reason Barry will get booed if he breaks the record on the road... and it ain't the 'roids and it ain't the media. It's character.

Character and +390 dingers still don't get you the Hall...Dale Murphy had a ton a character...nicest guy you want to meet, 2 MVP awards, 5 gold gloves +390 dingers...chaired 5 -7 charities while playing...and snubbed out of the Hall...

So yeah, Bonds etc might be selfish players with weak characters...but as a society, what do we really want from our heroes?...Dale Murphy?...hardly...Canseco?...hardly...Bonds?...no pe...What then?...I say we don't want heroes...we want people we can put on a pedestal and then knock down at our leisure.

Before Sosa and Big Mac had it out one hot summer ago, did we care for the clean hitter with 25-35 homers?...hardly...did we really want to believe how Mac and Sosa were doing it?...nope...what messege did we send them and Bonds?...I think it was..."keep hitting them boys, cause we don't care how"...and now, well now, we (as a collective society) want to judge their character?...give me a break...WE were in on it as much as they were...WE just don't have to owe up to it all...

WE blindly accepted the ERA from 1995-2005...we might as well accept the records that go with it...

[WhiskeyTangoFoxtrot]

What about Cal Ripken and the Tony Gwynn? Certainly, those guys were heroes to many and always in the same public spotlight. They never were knocked down, at least not that I can recall.

My point is that while Bonds & Co were built up and subsequently torn down, it was not for some rabid sense of entertainment. I think a lot of emotions are flowing into this subject, but what it boils down to is integrity.

I disagree about the fans being blind. The fans know what happened in '95-'05, and I think we've accepted the fact that we were all on the bandwagon. How many people say that they couldn't watch Big Mac vs. Sosa because it was morally depriving? Not me. I was all about it.

But when the initial buzz turned into a hangover, the mistakes were realized. When the issue caught fire, there was a collective notion that baseball isn't about just hitting home runs. Perhaps it brought in the casual fan looking to cure boredom, but there is so much more to it for anyone who truly cares about baseball.

So there they were, caught in the middle. Do you really think that if those guys stood up before congress and told the truth that they would all be blacklisted? No way. They all made a choice to defend a lie, and act like there was nothing wrong. And right there, when every single baseball fan (outside of San Francisco) was looking to start over and move forward, they took the easy way out and perpetuated the BS.

They would have been heroes.