[Lefty Noob]

The Pittsburgh Post-Gazette, and apparently a boatload of angry Steel City hockey fans, are calling for Penguins GM Craig Patrick to step down at the end of the season. I know the Pens have been woeful lately, but how much of that is Patrick's fault? Can you blame him because fans aren't coming out to the games, that the team can't get a new stadium, and that they're losing money hand-over-fist? I personally think he put together a pretty good roster this year, and it just hasn't worked out.

[xdavidwattsx]

Originally Posted by Lefty Noob

The Pittsburgh Post-Gazette, and apparently a boatload of angry Steel City hockey fans, are calling for Penguins GM Craig Patrick to step down at the end of the season. I know the Pens have been woeful lately, but how much of that is Patrick's fault? Can you blame him because fans aren't coming out to the games, that the team can't get a new stadium, and that they're losing money hand-over-fist? I personally think he put together a pretty good roster this year, and it just hasn't worked out.

Uh, you must be kidding. Craig Patrick has gone down in infamy as quite possibly the worst GM of all time in any sport. Let's review a bit of his "finer work":

1992 - Trades away Mark Recchi and Paul Coffey for Rick Tocchet, Kjell Samuelsson, Ken Wregget, and Jeff Chychrun. This officially begins the end of the Cup era.

1996 - Trades away Markus Naslund for Alek Stojanov

1996 - Trades away Sergei Zubov for Kevin Hatcher. Nuff said.

1997 - Trades away Glen Murray for Ed Olczyk

1998 - Traded rights to Patrick Lalime for Sean Pronger

2001 - Trades away Jaromir Jagr for Kris Beech, Michal Sivek and Ross Lapaschuk

2002 - Trades away Darius Kasparaitis for Ville Niemenen and Rick Berry

2002 - Lets Robert Lang walk

2003 - Trades away Alexei Kovalev for Rico fata, Mikael Samuelsson and Richard Lintner

2003 - Trades away Martin Straka for Martin Strbak and Sergei Anshakov

[Lefty Noob]

Okay, first of all, in 1993, Lemieux was out for two months after the diagnosis for Hodgkin's disease and the team Patrick put together still went 56-21-7 and won the Presidents Trophy. Yes, they were upset in the second round by the Islanders, but it was still a very talented team. They won the Northeast in three of the next five seasons and it wasn't until 2001-02 that they finished out of the playoffs.

And during this time, the team started losing money hand over fist, trying to stay competitive during the 90s. Their financial situation is why they lost Lalime and were forced to deal Jagr [don't forget they also got $4.9 million in that deal]. The team started losing, fans stopped coming and the fiscal situation only got worse. That's what led to the departures of Lang, Kovalev and Straka more than anything else.

The Penguins finished out of the playoffs every season from 1982-83 to 1987-88, and were eliminated in the second round of the 1988-89 season. Patrick took over as GM in December of 1989. Under his watch, the team added Jagr, Ron Francis and others and won two Stanley Cups. And he was named Sporting News Executive of the Year in 1998 and 1999.

Worst GM in any sport ever? Not hardly.

[wedge]

The worst GM ever? Please. I could think of two that would blow him away: Matt Millen and Isiah Thomas

[Gotham Dark Knight]

Originally Posted by xdavidwattsx

Uh, you must be kidding. Craig Patrick has gone down in infamy as quite possibly the worst GM of all time in any sport. Let's review a bit of his "finer work":

1992 - Trades away Mark Recchi and Paul Coffey for Rick Tocchet, Kjell Samuelsson, Ken Wregget, and Jeff Chychrun. This officially begins the end of the Cup era.

1996 - Trades away Markus Naslund for Alek Stojanov

1996 - Trades away Sergei Zubov for Kevin Hatcher. Nuff said.

1997 - Trades away Glen Murray for Ed Olczyk

1998 - Traded rights to Patrick Lalime for Sean Pronger

2001 - Trades away Jaromir Jagr for Kris Beech, Michal Sivek and Ross Lapaschuk

2002 - Trades away Darius Kasparaitis for Ville Niemenen and Rick Berry

2002 - Lets Robert Lang walk

2003 - Trades away Alexei Kovalev for Rico fata, Mikael Samuelsson and Richard Lintner

2003 - Trades away Martin Straka for Martin Strbak and Sergei Anshakov

Yikes..you know Wattsy there has a point...I mean look, its a three sport thing really...Millen can be the worse football GM, Thomas clearly reigns freely in the NBA, and lets give Patrick the "Crowned Prince of the Ice Rink" title...fair enough?...I mean valient try their Lefty, but the man traded away some of my favorites Penguins...this can't go without a Public forum lynching of sort...you bring the rope their Wattsy...I will supply the tree and the crowd...

[xdavidwattsx]

Originally Posted by wedge

The worst GM ever? Please. I could think of two that would blow him away: Matt Millen and Isiah Thomas

Craig Patrick has been honing his busted trades for 15 years. Millen and Thomas? Not even close.

Besides, neither one of those franchises have gone from contender to bankruptcy half as fast as Pittsburgh. We're talk about a team with 2 Cups and Mario lemieux that is teetering on the edge of disappearing.

How can you possibly compare a few years of bad moves with the Patrick resume?

[xdavidwattsx]

Originally Posted by Gotham Dark Knight

the man traded away some of my favorites Penguins..

That's bad enough, for sure, but he got absolutely squat for just about every one of those trades. That's the ultimate crime.

[anrobins]

Millen and Thomas have ruined teams that didn't have the financial problems of a small market NHL team prior to the lockout. Millen, in particular, came in with guns drawn, ready to tear apart the lions, promising to take the team to greatness. He ended up getting lost driving from Detroit to Grand Rapids and never found his way.

[xdavidwattsx]

Originally Posted by anrobins

Millen and Thomas have ruined teams that didn't have the financial problems of a small market NHL team prior to the lockout. Millen, in particular, came in with guns drawn, ready to tear apart the lions, promising to take the team to greatness. He ended up getting lost driving from Detroit to Grand Rapids and never found his way.

The Penguins didn't have those financial problems during the early 90's when Patrick came on and they won the cup. His horrible moves have been the catalyst for financial failure. His moves were problematic long before there was a lockout. You may not realize, but in the early 90's the Penguins were THE toast of Pittsburgh and the entire NHL. Patrick has been bungling moves long before Millen and Thomas even had front office jobs.

Just because they are bad GM's in bigger markets doesn't make them necessarily worse than Patrick. If you look at their bad moves in context of their sport and markets, there simply is no comparison.

[Gotham Dark Knight]

Originally Posted by xdavidwattsx

The Penguins didn't have those financial problems during the early 90's when Patrick came on and they won the cup. His horrible moves have been the catalyst for financial failure. His moves were problematic long before there was a lockout. You may not realize, but in the early 90's the Penguins were THE toast of Pittsburgh and the entire NHL. Patrick has been bungling moves long before Millen and Thomas even had front office jobs.

Just because they are bad GM's in bigger markets doesn't make them necessarily worse than Patrick. If you look at their bad moves in context of their sport and markets, there simply is no comparison.

I got this fight scored about 5-2 in favor of Watts…go for the knockout blow Watts!...go for the knockout! (***Down goes Frazier…Down goes Frazier…Down goes Frazier…***)...

[xdavidwattsx]

Originally Posted by Gotham Dark Knight

go for the knockout blow Watts!...go for the knockout!

Well, if he hadn't made enough mistakes over the years, he started this promising season off by sending down his number one goaltender of the future to the minors at the beginning of the season while Thibault absolutely blows it in goal.

Further, he puts Eddie Olczyk behind the bench, a man who has zero credentials.

It's like he's trying to lose.

[Lefty Noob]

What a one-sided look at his career.

You point out the fact that he dealt Jagr without mentioning that he drafted him in the first place, #5 overall in 1990.

You completely ignore the fact that in 1991, he traded Zarley Zalapski and John Cullen to Hartford for two key cogs of both Stanley Cup winning teams, Ronnie Francis and Ulf Samuelsson. Quote Wikipedia, "[Francis'] trade from the Whalers to the Penguins was considered a coup for Pittsburgh, where he centred a formidable second line behind Mario Lemieux's first line."

You say that he dealt Recchi without mentioning that Rick Tochett scored 19 points in 14 playoff games during their second Cup run, that Kjell Samuelsson was the intimidating defensive force that the team lacked and that Kenny Wregget was a solid backup for Barrasso for years.

Here's some additional info from Patrick's bio at the Pens website.

One of the most respected executives in professional hockey and a member of the Hockey Hall of Fame, Craig Patrick enters his 16th season as general manager of the Penguins.

As a testament to his skill and dedication, Patrick has been with his team longer than all but one NHL general manager, Lou Lamoriello of the New Jersey Devils.

Since taking over the Penguins’ hockey department in December, 1989, Patrick has led the Penguins to two Stanley Cups, five division titles and 11 playoff berths.

...

In addition to the two Cups and the five division titles, Patrick was named Sporting News NHL Executive of the Year in a vote of his peers in 1990-91, 1997-98 and 1998-99. He also won the 2000 Lester Patrick Award for contributions to hockey in the United States and was inducted into the United States Hockey Hall of Fame in 1996.

And there you have it. Was he perfect? Hell no. Straka and Naslund should never have been traded. Jagr was unavoidable; he wanted to go somewhere, become the No. 1 star on a team and earn the No. 1 star's playcheck. But to make it sound like his career is nothing but botched move after botched move is utterly absurd.

Admit it. Craig Patrick did a lot of good things for Penguins hockey.

[Gotham Dark Knight]

Originally Posted by Lefty Noob

What a one-sided look at his career.
Admit it. Craig Patrick did a lot of good things for Penguins hockey.

Nope...If the man once knew how to get the job done right its even more unforgiveable...Millien is a lost sole...pity is all you can offer him....But Patrick dismantled a Dynasty in the making...Any one can screw up the Lions...but to dismantle a Dynasty piece by piece and get little for it...that my friend calls for a special talent...sorry Lefty I still got Watts ahead on this one...

[Gotham Dark Knight]

Originally Posted by Lefty Noob

Quote Wikipedia, "[Francis'] trade from the Whalers to the Penguins was considered a coup for Pittsburgh, where he centred a formidable second line behind Mario Lemieux's first line."

...had to go and bust out the Wikipedia Source huh?... ...if that's not the signs of a desperate man I do not know what is...can't just about anyone edit some stuff into Wikipedia?...for all you know Ron Francis himself could have written that in... ...nice try. Watts still leads...

[Lefty Noob]

Not interested in turning this into some kind of contest, Gotham. If the fact that Patrick is an award-winner, a Hall of Famer and the architect of a two-time Stanley Cup champion doesn't convince you that the guy had merit as a GM, then I give up. We'll just have to agree to disagree on this one.