[ThePundit]

A big topic of conversation on talk radio in NY today was how great Mariano Rivera is. He not only has 400 career saves but many of them are more than the 1 inning cookie cutter save that most closers get. And what's amazing is he basically does it with 1 pitch.

"For me, and I've said it, he has the single best pitch ever in the game," Chicago's Jim Thome said. "A lot of guys, you can make some adjustments. But not with that cutter."

It was Rivera's 21st save in 23 chances. The other pitchers with 400 saves are Lee Smith (47, Trevor Hoffman (460) and John Franco (424).

"On the field and off the field, Hall of Fame," Chicago manager Ozzie Guillen said. "Young people should look up to him. He's the perfect player."

Is it even arguable that Rivera is the best closer of all time?

[Lefty Noob]

I'd say he sure smokes those other 400 save guys.

But its a different era. Saves are a lot easier to get nowadays, so its hard to compare. Is that a cop out?

[legend]

Here's an article I wrote on Rivera and updated. It expresses my opinion on this matter.

Mariano Rivera is a lock for the Baseball Hall of Fame, but is he the best reliever of all time? Since 1996, he has been saving games for the New York Yankees, taking over the closer roll from John Wetteland in ’1997. Mariano Rivera has been the picture of consistency from that point on until the present, but it is in the postseason that he proves his worth. His 34 postseason saves place Mariano Rivera, by far, all alone in that category. At age 36, Mariano Rivera shows no sign of letting up, coming off what may arguably be his best year in 2005.
Rivera was born in Panama City, Panama on November 29th, 1969. In the Yankee farm system, the six-foot 170 pound Rivera was originally a starter, but both his velocity and record were less than impressive. It was not until he unexpectedly upped the speed of his pitches to around 95 miles per hour, seemingly out of the blue, that the Yankees decided he was worth keeping. He came to the club in 1995, and served primarily as a bridge to the closer, who at that time was Wetteland. Yankees brass felt he was able to close on his own, and at the end of 1996 Wetteland went to the Texas Rangers and Rivera was handed the job. After a not so overpowering beginning, one that saw him blow three of his first five save opportunities, he settled in and he has recorded at least 36 saves every year, except for an injury plagued 2002 campaign. His career ERA is a paltry 2.33, over 2 runs per game less than the league average ERA during his career. He is currently ranked fourth in all time saves with an even 400, behind Lee Smith, Trevor Hoffman, and John Franco.
In the postseason, Mariano Rivera has pitched in 72 games, sporting an 8-1 won-loss mark. He has pitched 111 innings, allowing only 69 hits and 10 earned runs for a 0.81 ERA. His 34 saves in these key contests are 19 more than the next player, Dennis Eckersley, who recorded 15. His 9 World Series saves are 3 more than Rollie Fingers and his 72 postseason games pitched in is 17 more than the next highest pitcher, Jeff Nelson. The fact that the Yankees, with their deep pockets, put a World Series favorite on the field year after year, must be taken into account as you consider Rivera’s numbers. However, the success or failure of the closer is so often the difference between a contender making it to the World Series or falling by the wayside; the Yankees rarely have been let down by Mariano. His almost unhittable cut fastball, a pitch that often breaks the bats of left handed hitters as it comes in on them as they swing, has made him a feared weapon.
This is not to say that he hasn’t ever failed in the big spots. On the contrary, he has lost a seventh game of a World Series, allowing the Arizona Diamondbacks to come from a one run deficit in 2001 in the bottom of the ninth. A combination of bloop hits and his own catastrophic throwing error on a bunt were the reasons the Yankees didn’t win four world championships in a row. Rivera also gave up a home run in 1997 to Sandy Alomar, Jr. to blow a save against Cleveland in a series that the Yankees were eventually beaten in. And the infamous collapse against the Red Sox was due, in part, to Rivera’s inability to slam the door on Boston in games four and five. He has been less than stellar over the years against the Yankees biggest rival. Also, ironically, because of his cutter, he gives up an inordinate amount of “cheap hits”, as batters barely get a piece of the ball and drop it softly over the infielders’ heads.
In the world of relievers, it is the defeats and failures that stand out more than the 1-2-3 ninth innings and pressure saves. One only need look at Dennis Eckersley to know this is true. Voted into the Hall of Fame recently, Eckersley had 390 career saves, after becoming a closer for the Athletics at the age of 32. In 11 postseason series, he was 1-3 with 15 saves. But it is the home run he surrendered to Kirk Gibson in Game One of the 1988 World Series that will follow him around for the rest of his life. Rivera has recently just passed Eckersley in total saves; however it must be noted that Eckersley had a fine career as a starter as well.
The only relievers that can logically be mentioned in the same breath as Mariano Rivera are Rollie Fingers and Rich “Goose” Gossage. All-time save leader Lee Smith rang up 478 saves, but his ERA was over 3.00 and he was the loser in 2 of the 4 postseason games he appeared in. Trevor Hoffman, second in career saves with 436, has a 3.75 ERA and a 1-2 record in 5 postseason series, plus just blew the All-Star Game for the NL. John Franco pitched well in the two playoff series he played in with the Mets, but he was not the closer at that point in his long career. Franco never saved more than 38 games in a season, while Rivera has been at or over 50 twice and has averaged 38 for his career.
Gossage, who pitched in both the era where the closer routinely pitched two innings or more to garner a save and the one in which the save was a one inning affair, had 310 saves. His ERA was 3.10, but his hits to innings pitched ratio was very good, 1497 to 1809. In the World Series he had a 2.63 EA and 2 saves, to go along with 6 other Champion and Division Series saves. If he was pitching now, only needing to go one inning, two at the most every now and then, to get a save, it would be a close call between himself and Rivera. Gossage had his own disaster as a Yankee, a three run home run to his arch- nemesis George Brett in the 1981 playoffs. Ultimately, it is his control that costs him in his comparison to Rivera. Gossage walked an average of 47 batters a season, Mariano only 21.
Rollie Fingers, a Hall of Famer since 1992, had 341 saves and a 2.90 ERA over a 17 year career. His playoff stats cover 9 series, where he posted 10 saves and a 2.35 ERA to go with his 3-4 record. He pitched an average of 118 innings a season to Mariano Rivera’s 82, again showing how the game has changed from the standpoint of relievers. Rollie’s career high in saves was 37, one below Rivera’s average. If you were to project Fingers’ postseason numbers to equate them with Rivera’s, he would fall short with only 25 saves to Mariano’s 34. Fingers’ career ERA is only a little over half a run better than the rest of baseball during his playing days, whereas Rivera’s was the aforementioned over 2 runs better. It is this amazing stat that confirms that Mariano Rivera, indeed, is the best reliever of all time.

[MVB]

Originally Posted by Lefty Noob

I'd say he sure smokes those other 400 save guys.

But its a different era. Saves are a lot easier to get nowadays, so its hard to compare. Is that a cop out?

Saves are easier??? In this home run, power-loving era, saves are easier to record???

[Lefty Noob]

Well, unless I'm going daft in the head, the rule used to be that the winning run needed to be at the plate in order to qualify as a save opportunity. These days, a guy can come in with a three run cushion, no one on, and still walk away with a save. That's what I mean. Not to mention that today's closers are one-inning wonders.

[Gotham Dark Knight]

Originally Posted by MVB

Saves are easier??? In this home run, power-loving era, saves are easier to record???

Yep!...mostly cause the closer specialist has been defined and accepted...

My vote though is for Mike Marshall the ironman that played for the Dodgers, Expos and Twins if I am not mistaken...In 1974 Iron Mike logged 106 games and 208 innings in relief...he logged 15 wins and 21 saves...31 the year before when he appeared in 92 games and 179 innings...

That's a reliever...a guy who did the setup and closing all at once at a time when good starters where still logging 20 plus complete games a season...

I don't really like the one inning wonders who are only used for closing...

[NJjuniorfan8]

The role of the closer is EXTREMLEY overrated. You get to come in for 1 inning with up to a 3 run cushion and all you have to do is not blow it? Big deal.

Rivera may be the best at what he does. But let's see him throw more then 1 pitch and try going more then 1 inning.

Rivera would be a minor league pitcher if he was a starter. You can't survive as a starter for too long with only one pitch.

[Gotham Dark Knight]

Originally Posted by NJjuniorfan8

The role of the closer is EXTREMLEY overrated. You get to come in for 1 inning with up to a 3 run cushion and all you have to do is not blow it? Big deal.

Rivera may be the best at what he does. But let's see him throw more then 1 pitch and try going more then 1 inning.

Rivera would be a minor league pitcher if he was a starter. You can't survive as a starter for too long with only one pitch.

That's all I am saying NJ...overrated...exactly...3 run cushion...heck come on....it shouldn't be a save unless he comes in with the tying run in scoring position...

[legend]

If memory serves me right, Rivera threw three scoreless innings in Game Seven against the Red Sox in 2004 before Boone homered.

[Gotham Dark Knight]

Originally Posted by legend

If memory serves me right, Rivera threw three scoreless innings in Game Seven against the Red Sox in 2004 before Boone homered.

Overrated minus one then...

[ThePundit]

Originally Posted by NJjuniorfan8

The role of the closer is EXTREMLEY overrated. You get to come in for 1 inning with up to a 3 run cushion and all you have to do is not blow it? Big deal.

Rivera may be the best at what he does. But let's see him throw more then 1 pitch and try going more then 1 inning.

Rivera would be a minor league pitcher if he was a starter. You can't survive as a starter for too long with only one pitch.

That's the thing about Rivera - he gets a lot of multi-inning saves - especially in the post season.....Out of 34 post season saves - 12 have been for a full 2 innings and a bunch more for 1 and change. His 400th save this year was for a full 2 innings.