[Bishop]

Look I know hes got 4 rings and all but as brought up in previous posts the guy just doesnt manage anymore. Yes in 1996-2000 he was great but after that he just seemed to lose interest. I mean that 2004 ALCS debacle was death penatly worthy!!! How about a little small ball against a bloody sock pitcher Joe? No Joe wants to just sit on a bench, think about his pasta meal after the game and to make everyone think hes a Bobby Cox/Sparky Anderson-level genius hell argue with an ump or take out 121 year old Randy Johnson when hes getting shelled (which is every time he pitches!). Joe sux and deep down every Yankee fan knows it. Stump Merrill could have won 4 World Series with the core of Pettite, Rivera, Posada, Jeter, etc. Concentrate on being fat Joe cuz you suck. Make Lee Mazzillii the manager. At least he cares!!!

[MJHMarc]

We will have to see how long he stays in the Big Apple. I don't see a lot of years ahead of him, at least in NY. But the Yankees usually start off the season poorly every year but become a contender for the World Series later in the season.

I think the biggest Yankee fan in the forum, MVB, should comment on this.

[MVB]

Love the title, "Biggest Yankee Fan on the Forum".... I have to put that in my sig...

Well, it's all well and good to sit and judge Joe Torre. If it were up to most of us, we'd have Rivera out there every night, because we don't trust the rest of the pen. Torre has to think of, not just tonight, but tomorrow and the next day too. He can't use Rivera and Farnsworth every time we want hime to. Torre can't leave Mussina or Chacon out there as long as we want him to, because he can't have their arms blown out by the end of the season.

That said, I do have to agree that Torre has made some really stupid decisions lately, and I hope he shapes up. It seems like luck has gone against him this year, and if it doesn't change... New York might have to look for a new manager.

Torre has been excellent in the past, he was a big reason that the Yanks won all those WS rings. Remember, when the Yanks won the '00 world series, the players (and most of the fans) said that it was Torre who contributed the most in their victory.

[legend]

Everyone here is missing the most important thing about Joe Torre. I too disagree alot with some of his moves, mostly pitching decisions. But the true strength of Torre is his ability to handle the huge egos he is surrounded by. Sheffield, A-Rod, Jeter, Giambi, Johnson, Mussina, Damon- to be able to keep these guys all on the same page and happy is alot more difficult than you and I can imagine. Now throw in the most controversial owner in sports history. There is a reason he has managed this long for Steinbrenner when no one else has been able to. By the way, did I mention handling the media in the world's largest media center? When Torre does go, and if Steinbrenner stays active as owner, you watch the revovling door begin again.

[Bishop]

Originally Posted by legend

Everyone here is missing the most important thing about Joe Torre. I too disagree alot with some of his moves, mostly pitching decisions. But the true strength of Torre is his ability to handle the huge egos he is surrounded by. Sheffield, A-Rod, Jeter, Giambi, Johnson, Mussina, Damon- to be able to keep these guys all on the same page and happy is alot more difficult than you and I can imagine. Now throw in the most controversial owner in sports history. There is a reason he has managed this long for Steinbrenner when no one else has been able to. By the way, did I mention handling the media in the world's largest media center? When Torre does go, and if Steinbrenner stays active as owner, you watch the revovling door begin again.

Hes afraid of those players and hes scared of Steinbrenner. Ol' Joe just wants to sit back and watch that ungodly payroll play itself out because if he says one thing coach to player to a headcase like Gary Sheffield or Randy "I Dont Got It No More" Johnson itll be on the back of the Daily News with the player mouthing off to Meek Joe. Fact of the matter is the 2004 ALCS showed Meek Joe's managerial skills post 2001 (when I think he just stopped coaching) and he should have been fired right after that series. Sorry Red Sox fans but no miracle occured. Just a Namby Pamby Manager of millionares who are too scared to not to start slumping, unproductive players or remove them from a game when they are losing it for them. The Yankees will never win another World Series with Joe Torre as manager. They need a younger, hungrier manager such as (my choice) Lee Mazilli. He did well in Baltimore with no players but as managers do had to be the scapegoat when the O's started losing. I imagine Joe cowers by a benches edge in the locker room while The Has Been Big Unit yells at him and tells him when pitchers should be taken out and when they should stay in. A fly on the wall could probably hear a few "Yes sir, Mr. Sheffields" as well. His guts left when Zimmer left cuz Zimmer wasnt afraid of anyone. Now Stottlemyres gone? Whats Joe to do? I actually feel bad for Joe cuz hes more a new age psychologist nowadays then he is a baseball manager. Imagine Billy Martin with this team? Hed take off his belt and deal corporal punishment to big shots like these overpaid senior citizens! This is a man who pulled Reggie Jackson...HALL OF FAMER REGGIE JACKSON out of the outfield in the middle of in inning cuz he felt he didnt make a good enough effort. Where are more managers like #1? Are there any left? He didnt have ba**s folks...he had cantaloupes!!!

[Bishop]

Joe said a few words to Tanyon Sturtze on the mound after a cataclysmic performance. Yes folks we have found a pulse on Joe after all.

[Trashed]

Originally Posted by Bishop

Hes afraid of those players and hes scared of Steinbrenner. Ol' Joe just wants to sit back and watch that ungodly payroll play itself out because if he says one thing coach to player to a headcase like Gary Sheffield or Randy "I Dont Got It No More" Johnson itll be on the back of the Daily News with the player mouthing off to Meek Joe. Fact of the matter is the 2004 ALCS showed Meek Joe's managerial skills post 2001 (when I think he just stopped coaching) and he should have been fired right after that series. Sorry Red Sox fans but no miracle occured. Just a Namby Pamby Manager of millionares who are too scared to not to start slumping, unproductive players or remove them from a game when they are losing it for them. The Yankees will never win another World Series with Joe Torre as manager. They need a younger, hungrier manager such as (my choice) Lee Mazilli. He did well in Baltimore with no players but as managers do had to be the scapegoat when the O's started losing. I imagine Joe cowers by a benches edge in the locker room while The Has Been Big Unit yells at him and tells him when pitchers should be taken out and when they should stay in. A fly on the wall could probably hear a few "Yes sir, Mr. Sheffields" as well. His guts left when Zimmer left cuz Zimmer wasnt afraid of anyone. Now Stottlemyres gone? Whats Joe to do? I actually feel bad for Joe cuz hes more a new age psychologist nowadays then he is a baseball manager. Imagine Billy Martin with this team? Hed take off his belt and deal corporal punishment to big shots like these overpaid senior citizens! This is a man who pulled Reggie Jackson...HALL OF FAMER REGGIE JACKSON out of the outfield in the middle of in inning cuz he felt he didnt make a good enough effort. Where are more managers like #1? Are there any left? He didnt have ba**s folks...he had cantaloupes!!!

Bish is a frustrated Yankee fan and I dont blame him one bit. I disagree with his comments about Torre though because I think he does A LOT of disciplining of these players but he does it privately so it doesnt end up on the back page of the news and the whole team thinks that helter skelter has arrived. Lee Mazilli as Joes successor? Could work. One thing I definitely do agree with Bishop about is Billy Martin. He was a great manager who installed a tough guy mentality into his players and if they didnt like him they sure respected him. The Jackson example in the post is exactly why Martin was great...you do it his way or thats it. It doesnt matter if you have the speed of Brock, the power of Ruth the instinct of Williams rolled up into one (come to think of it isnt that Yaztremski I just described? ) if you didnt play with 100% effort you sat on the bench or you could play somewhere else. RIP # 1, well never forget you running in from the outfield to make that catch near the pitchers mound in....I forget the year!

[legend]

The year was 1952. It was the seventh inning and with the bases loaded, Jackie Robinson hit a pop-up that nobody seemed to want to catch until Billy came flying in from second and caught it basket style!
Billy Martin was in my opinion the greatest strategical manager in the game's long history. But if you think he would last more than a half a week in today's game of pampered egos, you would be mistaken.

[Trashed]

Originally Posted by legend

The year was 1952. It was the seventh inning and with the bases loaded, Jackie Robinson hit a pop-up that nobody seemed to want to catch until Billy came flying in from second and caught it basket style!
Billy Martin was in my opinion the greatest strategical manager in the game's long history. But if you think he would last more than a half a week in today's game of pampered egos, you would be mistaken.

No he wouldnt last today legend...that is the problem!

[MJHMarc]

Baseball has changed a lot in its 100+ years of existence.

Some of the players go out on the field (not for the love of the game but) for money and endorsement deals.

Quick Question: Did Babe Ruth have an agent?

[Trashed]

I think he did later in his career but not when he was brilliantly traded to the Yankees.

[ThePundit]

Some good comments made here. Torre started out as a good manager because when he took over in '96 he had a team who had never won anything who had very few stars on it. Look at the team:

Tino
Mariano Duncan
Jeter as a rookie
Boggs
Daryl strawberry
Bernie
O'Neil
Mariano wasn't even the closer.

So Torre came in and lit a fire under their butts and played a ton of small ball. He wasn't afraid to make unorthodox decisions. Then the more stars the Yankees aquired, he sort of stopped managing. That Red Sox fiasco is a prime example - not bunting on Schilling, not running on Wakefield....He just defers to the players now and "hopes" they know what to do on their own. That's not a manager - it's a spectator.

[legend]

Remember this about Torre. He had played his whole career and managed his whole career in the National League. When he first came to NY, he was like a NL manager in the American League and he had great success. But as Steinbrenner and Cashman gave him players that were more sluggers than complete players, he became an American League type manager; waiting for the big inning.

[simple simon]

ok as most of you know im no Yankee fan

but doesnt atleast some of the blame rest with Cashman ?

Johnson looks like he is suffering some sort of dementia out there and some of the rest of the team is old as well

cant blame Joe for that

[Trashed]

Originally Posted by ThePundit

Some good comments made here. Torre started out as a good manager because when he took over in '96 he had a team who had never won anything who had very few stars on it. Look at the team:

Tino
Mariano Duncan
Jeter as a rookie
Boggs
Daryl strawberry
Bernie
O'Neil
Mariano wasn't even the closer.

So Torre came in and lit a fire under their butts and played a ton of small ball. He wasn't afraid to make unorthodox decisions. Then the more stars the Yankees aquired, he sort of stopped managing. That Red Sox fiasco is a prime example - not bunting on Schilling, not running on Wakefield....He just defers to the players now and "hopes" they know what to do on their own. That's not a manager - it's a spectator.

Youre making a lot of sense here Pundit. If you keep it up youre gonna make me a Mets fan!!