[LSC9901]

Originally Posted by Quality88

Here's my thing... Why did they cheat against a team they should have blown out of the water. I could understand a team like Dallas was at the time(still makes it wrong)... but they cheated(which is wrong) and cheated against a team they should have spanked. That's why it taints this year for me. Yes teams have cheated and will cheat, but when an organization such as the esteemed Patriots who are suppost to be so great and shouldn't need to do such things... it makes me want to puke. Especially when they just get slapped on the hand.

I've posed this question before and will again. Under the current rules what would you impose as a fair penalty ? Obviously forfeiting the game is not going to happen. They lost a draft pick and paid about $750K in fines. Show me something comparable. I'm not saying it doesn't exist ... I just don't know of it.

I'm also interested in how far a team/player/coach/water boy can go before a season is considered tainted.

[Quality88]

Originally Posted by LSC9901

I've posed this question before and will again. Under the current rules what would you impose as a fair penalty ? Obviously forfeiting the game is not going to happen. They lost a draft pick and paid about $750K in fines. Show me something comparable. I'm not saying it doesn't exist ... I just don't know of it.

I'm also interested in how far a team/player/coach/water boy can go before a season is considered tainted.

The team is a powerhouse, they should have lost all first round picks. To me 750K is a joke to an organization of that caliber. 2Mil atleast.

Maybe tainted is a bit much, but it still overshadows the season. You bein a Pats fan I ask this to you.... (and this is purely for discussion and in all seriousness), why in the hell if your team is so damn good would they videotape a team they should easily walk in and drop kick?

[LSC9901]

Originally Posted by Quality88

The team is a powerhouse, they should have lost all first round picks. To me 750K is a joke to an organization of that caliber. 2Mil atleast.

Maybe tainted is a bit much, but it still overshadows the season. You bein a Pats fan I ask this to you.... (and this is purely for discussion and in all seriousness), why in the hell if your team is so damn good would they videotape a team they should easily walk in and drop kick?

I obviously have no answer for that. It wasn't the most brilliant move ever but for whatever reason it was done. Hindsight is always 20/20.

Being realistic over the penalties is difficult at best, but I ask that you look at other sports and compare. Mind you, now I may not disagree with your thought that the $$$ penalty for this wasn't large enough but what would be enough to make everyone happy ?? For any professional sports organization this size ... money is nothing. So other than fan satisfaction it accomplishes nothing. A better penalty would be to suspend the coach for a specific number of games. (Does the name Knaus ring any bells??) There will always be someone not content with the decision of those in power.

Since there have been no apparent further violations then just as in the Vick case, once justice has been served then you must start fresh. When Vick gets out he will be eligible to return to football. His price will have been paid. The penalties imposed upon Belichick & the Pat's have been paid and they will lose a draft pick. Justice, whether you agree or not, has been served.

[simple simon]

Originally Posted by Quality88

Here's my thing... Why did they cheat against a team they should have blown out of the water. I could understand a team like Dallas was at the time(still makes it wrong)... but they cheated(which is wrong) and cheated against a team they should have spanked. That's why it taints this year for me. Yes teams have cheated and will cheat, but when an organization such as the esteemed Patriots who are suppost to be so great and shouldn't need to do such things... it makes me want to puke. Especially when they just get slapped on the hand.

seems by your logic the Cowboys season is tainted ... Roy Williams cheated when he made that horse collar tackle so he tainted their season ....... why he probably cheats all the time and just doesnt get caught .... heck for that matter the entire Dallas team probably cheats all the time and just doesnt get caught

yup .... by your logic their season is tainted

[Quality88]

Originally Posted by LSC9901

I obviously have no answer for that. It wasn't the most brilliant move ever but for whatever reason it was done. Hindsight is always 20/20.

Being realistic over the penalties is difficult at best, but I ask that you look at other sports and compare. Mind you, now I may not disagree with your thought that the $$$ penalty for this wasn't large enough but what would be enough to make everyone happy ?? For any professional sports organization this size ... money is nothing. So other than fan satisfaction it accomplishes nothing. A better penalty would be to suspend the coach for a specific number of games. (Does the name Knaus ring any bells??) There will always be someone not content with the decision of those in power.

Since there have been no apparent further violations then just as in the Vick case, once justice has been served then you must start fresh. When Vick gets out he will be eligible to return to football. His price will have been paid. The penalties imposed upon Belichick & the Pat's have been paid and they will lose a draft pick. Justice, whether you agree or not, has been served.

I can live with that repsonse and respect it. Let's not go Knaus right now.... we'll be dealin with that soon enough.

[LSC9901]

Originally Posted by Quality88

I can live with that repsonse and respect it. Let's not go Knaus right now.... we'll be dealin with that soon enough.

I hear you but obviously I wanted an example you could relate to.

[simple simon]

let's keep in mind .... Bob Kraft is a billionaire .... most any fine would not really faze them

[Quality88]

Originally Posted by simple simon

seems by your logic the Cowboys season is tainted ... Roy Williams cheated when he made that horse collar tackle so he tainted their season ....... why he probably cheats all the time and just doesnt get caught .... heck for that matter the entire Dallas team probably cheats all the time and just doesnt get caught

yup .... by your logic their season is tainted

Roy williams season is tainted. He did well through the season, but ruined it by the tackle. Does the enitre cheat team all the time? Maybe, maybe not. If you want to go that route Simon, I believe several Pats fans have stated that probably every team does it. So that means the whole NFL season is tainted then correct? by the logic of the mass of Pats fans? Who got caught though? The Pats, Williams, some others. Who has the most of their reputation bein tainted from this season. The PATS. You won't change my mind on that. What Williams did was wrong. He got his. Infact they made a rule against what he did(which is stupid cause horsecaollar tackles have been in the league forever). The Pats may have not got all that I think they should have, but they are tarnished in the eyes of many. They are gonna be under scrutiny for some time. Maybe it will help them get better and stronger.

[Quality88]

Originally Posted by LSC9901

I hear you but obviously I wanted an example you could relate to.

Dually noted

[Phils20]

Originally Posted by simple simon

seems by your logic the Cowboys season is tainted ... Roy Williams cheated when he made that horse collar tackle so he tainted their season ....... why he probably cheats all the time and just doesnt get caught .... heck for that matter the entire Dallas team probably cheats all the time and just doesn't get caught

yup .... by your logic their season is tainted

There is a big difference between making an illegal tackle, and taping the sideline.

To suggest that they are the same is to insult the intelligence of everyone in the entire thread. In one case, a coach or team of coaches made a calculated choice to violate the rules of the game.

You can't compare that to a split second decision to make a bad tackle.

I hope you don't really believe that is the case. I think I'm about done reading this thread. That comparison is an absolote insult to common sense.

Please tell me you don't really think that is a fair comparison.

[simple simon]

Originally Posted by Phils20

There is a big difference between making an illegal tackle, and taping the sideline.

To suggest that they are the same is to insult the intelligence of everyone in the entire thread. In one case, a coach or team of coaches made a calculated choice to violate the rules of the game.

You can't compare that to a split second decision to make a bad tackle.

I hope you don't really believe that is the case. I think I'm about done reading this thread. That comparison is an absolote insult to common sense.

Please tell me you don't really think that is a fair comparison.

hmm lets see ...... the taping may have helped them win a game (it didnt as they never got to use the tape) ........ the horse collar tackle could have cost McNabb his season or even career (i believe he was the one Williams tackled)

as for it being a split second choice ...... sorry i dont buy that .. as stated earlier this rule was put in place specifically because of Williams ...... it seems it is for some reason ingrained in to his very being as a defensive player

now is potentially being able to use info from a tape to win a game .... worse then making a tackle in a manner that could potentially ruin a mans career (the player being tackled) ......... sorry but i dont think the video is worse .... i doesnt have the power to cripple anyone

[LSC9901]

I'll admit that I am not real familiar with the Williams situation but .....I believe that on many occasions personal fouls are just a matter of your hands landing in the wrong place. Now you may think that is a fluffy answer but when an offensive player, who is trying to get by me, with the ball gets within my reach you can bet my arms will flail. If I catch his face guard it isn't necessarily intentional every time. Yes I'm sure there are times when it is intentional ... but not always. Therefore I agree that split second choices are sometimes made but .... I again say that not every penalty is intentional. Intentional requires forethought.

[Lefty Noob]

Come on, simon. It's totally different. You're talking heat of the moment, trying to stop a touchdown vs. an alleged premediated stealth operation to spy on a team's practice. If you're going to compare it to anything, compare it to steroid use - something that requires a conscious, off-the-field decisions to do, and can't just be a player losing his head in the midst of the action. It's a weak comparison.

[Bette]

Originally Posted by simple simon

seems by your logic the Cowboys season is tainted ... Roy Williams cheated when he made that horse collar tackle so he tainted their season ....... why he probably cheats all the time and just doesnt get caught .... heck for that matter the entire Dallas team probably cheats all the time and just doesnt get caught

yup .... by your logic their season is tainted

by this logic then, Wilfork's fine for unnecessary roughness against the Chargers, and Harrison's dirty hits make the Pats season tainted. Oh yeah, thats what we were talking about.
Come on simon, like Lefty says, heat of the moment and all that.

[Gotham Dark Knight]

Originally Posted by Lefty Noob

Come on, simon. It's totally different. You're talking heat of the moment, trying to stop a touchdown vs. an alleged premediated stealth operation to spy on a team's practice. If you're going to compare it to anything, compare it to steroid use - something that requires a conscious, off-the-field decisions to do, and can't just be a player losing his head in the midst of the action. It's a weak comparison.

Agreed weak at best.

I think the real question is what is acceptable as part of the game...is attempted signal stealing part of the game? I think there is enough people saying it is...if so, then a punishment if caught is okay, but to go as far as say the title is tainted...naw...not if its an acceptable part of the game.

The rest of the crap is brought on by sports writers looking for a story, or Senators looking for the spotlight.

These are the same writers who feel "integrity" is part of why they don't vote Big Mac into the Hall, but no one had a problem with a dirty player like Gaylord Perry going in...

Weak and shifting standards by writers, is no reason to call a season tainted.