[Bob Tanner]

Originally Posted by LSC9901

I'm confident that you didn't mean the B.S. to mean Bachelor of Science ... right Bob ??? This is another one of the subjects I can't stay away from without making a comment. Not that I haven't said it before but ..... how in the world will the cup series ever have qualified drivers when the Kevin Harvicks of NASCAR eliminate the chance for them. Pick a series to run in and stay with it and stay out of the others. Give the up and coming guys at least a chance to learn. I'll stop there before I hurt my fingers typing out angry statements.
Smoke ... pills please !!

You got it right, Kemosabe.

I don't want to go on a rant here, but...

This is maybe the most flagrant example of how corporate thinking is capable of killing sport. NASCAR seems to be perfectly happy to look at the short-term gain of putting a few (and I strongly believe it only a few) more butts in the seats for the Cup Lite races, and to get more hi-rolling sponsors to cross NASCAR's palms with schekels.

To make things even more enticing for the Cup Raiders, they've even cut the number of guaranteed starting spots from 35 to 30, instead of RAISING the number to 40 or 41!

One justification NASCAR always throws out there is: "It gives the [poor, underprivileged, untalented] Busch drivers a chance to run against the {real] Cup drivers and the BGN drivers appreciate the opportunity." Then they interview some Busch driver for verification. If you notice they always interview a Busch driver who (a) is in the top 20, or so and therefore has no worries about being knocked out of starting by a Cup Raider, and (b) 90% of the time the driver they ask has a Cup affiliation.

They never interview the driver whose team is busy putting his car back on the trailer for the trip back home. A driver who could really use the experience of driving under NASCAR conditions and whose team is underfunded and could use the $25K-$30K they might win IF they were allowed to race.

For me, the icing on the cake came a couple weeks ago when Shane Wilson (Cartman Harvick's crew chief) got caught cheating. Isn't it enough that they Raiders bring their so-called super talents to Cup Lie, along with Cup crew personnel and Cup garage technology? They even employ Cup-level cheating to compete? My Gawd! Has anyone connected with the Cup Raiders have no shame?!

Then, I've heard the journalistic hacks ask more than one Cup Raider on race day, "Did you learn anything yesterday in the Busch race?" Just since Daytona I've heard Flipper (Edwards) and The Irritator (Junior) both answer strongly in the affirmative. Maybe I'm just a dumb old farm boy from Indiana but this sure sounds like the above mentioned got an extra practice session to me. shorter wheelbase or not. My immediate thinking is that IF the Cup Raiders want to play ball on a smaller field, then charge them a practice session against the current number of sessions allowed.

Long term bottom line is that NASCAR, and its usual permissive selective behaviour is quickly killing a perfectly good farm system for drivers and crew.

Now, where did you say those Prosac were?
<singing> "Sometimes you feel like a nut; sometimes you don't..."

[LSC9901]

Well Bob I think I'll take today off from complaining about the cup lite series. You seem to have covered it all for me today. No doubt NA$CAR is looking at the financial end of having the big boys race in the minor league series. There seems to be no negative side to the cup teams/drivers, for running in the Busch series. Until that happens and as long as NA$CAR and corporate America is making money at the expense of experience, it will continue to happen.

Originally Posted by Bob Tanner

You got it right, Kemosabe.

I don't want to go on a rant here, but...

This is maybe the most flagrant example of how corporate thinking is capable of killing sport. NASCAR seems to be perfectly happy to look at the short-term gain of putting a few (and I strongly believe it only a few) more butts in the seats for the Cup Lite races, and to get more hi-rolling sponsors to cross NASCAR's palms with schekels.

To make things even more enticing for the Cup Raiders, they've even cut the number of guaranteed starting spots from 35 to 30, instead of RAISING the number to 40 or 41!

One justification NASCAR always throws out there is: "It gives the [poor, underprivileged, untalented] Busch drivers a chance to run against the {real] Cup drivers and the BGN drivers appreciate the opportunity." Then they interview some Busch driver for verification. If you notice they always interview a Busch driver who (a) is in the top 20, or so and therefore has no worries about being knocked out of starting by a Cup Raider, and (b) 90% of the time the driver they ask has a Cup affiliation.

They never interview the driver whose team is busy putting his car back on the trailer for the trip back home. A driver who could really use the experience of driving under NASCAR conditions and whose team is underfunded and could use the $25K-$30K they might win IF they were allowed to race.

For me, the icing on the cake came a couple weeks ago when Shane Wilson (Cartman Harvick's crew chief) got caught cheating. Isn't it enough that they Raiders bring their so-called super talents to Cup Lie, along with Cup crew personnel and Cup garage technology? They even employ Cup-level cheating to compete? My Gawd! Has anyone connected with the Cup Raiders have no shame?!

Then, I've heard the journalistic hacks ask more than one Cup Raider on race day, "Did you learn anything yesterday in the Busch race?" Just since Daytona I've heard Flipper (Edwards) and The Irritator (Junior) both answer strongly in the affirmative. Maybe I'm just a dumb old farm boy from Indiana but this sure sounds like the above mentioned got an extra practice session to me. shorter wheelbase or not. My immediate thinking is that IF the Cup Raiders want to play ball on a smaller field, then charge them a practice session against the current number of sessions allowed.

Long term bottom line is that NASCAR, and its usual permissive selective behaviour is quickly killing a perfectly good farm system for drivers and crew.

Now, where did you say those Prosac were?
<singing> "Sometimes you feel like a nut; sometimes you don't..."

[TN_Gal]

To be perfectly honest...and this pains me I began watching Busch races because I saw the cup drivers names running in it. How many other Busch fans were drawn to the Busch races this way? Do I feel snookered?..No....but I do agree with the "give the little guy a chance" opionion.

I am now also watching truck and ARCA, so I think the fact that I actually made the jump into other areas beside cup has broadened my racing interests. Now multiply me by a few million and see the expansion of the interest in racing overall..that is good for the sport.

Back on topic.....I think if you are gonna run Busch, you run them all, no picking and choosing tracks. That might put the kabosh on the raiders.

[3wide]

Well, I personally rank the Busch series behind the trucks as a farm system. I'm against bushwhacking but I'm glad to see that it's enriching the talent level in the truck series, where few cup guys run. The problem is that the trucks pay squat, compared to the Busch cars(which is why cup regulars usually don't bother).

In the end, I'd like to see something done to limit busch starts by the cup guys.

[LoneStarGR]

I love watching the Busch series but I have to agree with limiting Cup drivers. One idea has been to change the make up of the cars in the Busch series so that it can't be used as a test session for Cup drivers. How about some different chassis components and body templates for one. Camaros, Mustangs, ect. I miss the days of the ASA. It was as great a series for developing great Cup drivers as the Busch series.

[LSC9901]

Instead of starting another thread I decided to renew this one. With the championship gone to a cup driver and the season nearing it's end do you have any other thoughts about the cup drivers running in the Busch series. Below is a quote I found from Ashton Lewis Jr.


Lewis not happy with 'Buschwackers': Busch Series regular #25-Ashton Lewis Jr. had some harsh words for the Cup drivers who race semi-regularly in the support series. “Every incident that I’ve had this year, except for one of them, has been with a Cup guy,” said Lewis. “They always say that they’re coming down here to have fun and learn, but it’s not fun and learning for us. It’s us trying to make careers and run for a championship, and I think they take some chances they wouldn’t take in the Cup car and that’s unfortunate.” (Gaston Gazette)(6-6-2005)

[Bob Tanner]

Originally Posted by LSC9901

Instead of starting another thread I decided to renew this one. With the championship gone to a cup driver and the season nearing it's end do you have any other thoughts about the cup drivers running in the Busch series.

I STILL think it stinks. But, I have come up with a solution which will make both NA$CAR and actual race fans happy.

Everyone wants to see the actual BGN drivers (not Cup Raiders and Cup drivers running BGN fuull time) get a chance at some seat time. This also gives them a chance to advertise THEIR minor-league sponsors, giving them a chance at more sponsor money. BUT NA$CAR has this insane idea that it MUST pander to driver fans and not actual race fans.

How's this: The fastest 43 actual BGN drivers (not a driver in the top 35 in Cup points) start the race. ALL the Cup Raiders who qualify faster than the 43rd fastest BGN driver also makes the race. This could well lead to having a starting field in excess of 43 cars. So? Points? All finishing spots below 42nd get 34 points.

NA$CAR's tracks are all big enough to handle a field of 45-55 cars right? <slap!> Oh, silly me! I forgot about Martinsville and Bristol! Let's see...

Last Bristol race had thirteen Cup Raiders in it, so... 43 real BGN racers and 13 Raiders... That makes a starting field of 56 car! On a half-mile track??? "Why, that's just silly!", you say? I agree, Just about as silly as having a bunch of Cup Raiders come over and steal starting spots from developing drivers and taking prise money that the BGN teams need a whole lot more than a satelite Roush, RCR or Hendrick operation does.

Cup Raiders...Grrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrr