[wingkey1]

This is fundamentally wrong in so many ways (most already covered expressed here) it leaves one struggling for words.

Any win by other than Toyota in NNS from this point until which time the "hobble" is lifted is meaningless. There will be no "wins" by others, only gifts.

Interesting if read correctly here that the winningest Toyo (#20) in NNS did not measure (for the given day/event) at the highest power level.

While disappointed that NASCAR would make this move, the REAL disappointment here is with any/all competing manufacturers and associated teams guilty of constant whining to NASCAR. History would indicate the Hat and all of his connected elements are likely involved.

Any meaningful racing in NNS is now over. There are four legged horses versus three legged horses. Can't feel any sense of good in a win by the "fours" ---- not any, because can't even be sure now it WAS a win.

[GrimlockAutobot]

Originally Posted by wingkey1

This is fundamentally wrong in so many ways (most already covered expressed here) it leaves one struggling for words.

Any win by other than Toyota in NNS from this point until which time the "hobble" is lifted is meaningless. There will be no "wins" by others, only gifts.

Interesting if read correctly here that the winningest Toyo (#20) in NNS did not measure (for the given day/event) at the highest power level.

While disappointed that NASCAR would make this move, the REAL disappointment here is with any/all competing manufacturers and associated teams guilty of constant whining to NASCAR. History would indicate the Hat and all of his connected elements are likely involved.

Any meaningful racing in NNS is now over. There are four legged horses versus three legged horses. Can't feel any sense of good in a win by the "fours" ---- not any, because can't even be sure now it WAS a win.

Your comparison of four legged horses against Toyota's three legged horses is incorrect. Again, NASCAR DID NOT put Toyota at a DISadvantage. they are now EQUAL to the rest of the field.

Which is better? Toyota now having 4 legged horses like everyone else or the NASCAR NW series going back to everyone riding regular 4 legged horses to Toyota's 4 legged horses with turbo-charged rockets strapped to their backs?

There is no gifts to the other teams......they'll have to earn victories like everyone else......only now there's no huge disadvantage to the other teams. Things are now equal.

Toyota is now on the same playing field as everyone else what is so wrong with that? IMO there's nothing wrong with standardization in the equipment in a sport.

I just wish they would do the same thing in Sprint cup. Toyota was racing apples against oranges and they were able to get away with it. Look at the quote below and tell me it doesn't change your mind:

Technically, the new guidelines aren't directed solely at Toyota. But because the automaker is working with a brand new engine and has access to the latest technology, Toyota teams have gained an advantage over the manufacturers using older engine models.

If the other manufacturers should reach the stage at which Toyota is currently, they would be subject to the horsepower guidelines NASCAR mandated Wednesday.
Chevrolet has been pushing to use its new engine in the Nationwide Series, and many believe that model is on par with the Toyota motors.--AP

Based on the quote from the AP above, what Toyota was able to do was unfair.....they had an advantage because their technology is newer not because they had better engineers or mechanics in the garage. GM has a new motor too.....one that NASCAR won't let them use, which is also on par with what Toyota is currently using. How is that for unfair? The other cars aren't even at the same stage as Toyota's NEWER engine. Why would NASCAR even let a new car maker in without letting the other makers use the same advanced equipment?

[DodgeFB]

I think at the very least they should have given Toyota more time to prepare to be choked. I hate most mid-season changes anyway.

Just one of my many opinions.

[Bob Tanner]

Originally Posted by GrimlockAutobot

Your comparison of four legged horses against Toyota's three legged horses is incorrect. Again, NASCAR DID NOT put Toyota at a DISadvantage. they are now EQUAL to the rest of the field.

?

Better go back and do some research on how NA__AR treated Toyota, in comparision to MOPAR when it re-entered Cup. You're an intelligent guy. I'll let you do the remembering and report back.

[wingkey1]

Originally Posted by GrimlockAutobot

Your comparison of four legged horses against Toyota's three legged horses is incorrect. Again, NASCAR DID NOT put Toyota at a DISadvantage. they are now EQUAL to the rest of the field.

Which is better? Toyota now having 4 legged horses like everyone else or the NASCAR NW series going back to everyone riding regular 4 legged horses to Toyota's 4 legged horses with turbo-charged rockets strapped to their backs?

There is no gifts to the other teams......they'll have to earn victories like everyone else......only now there's no huge disadvantage to the other teams. Things are now equal.

Toyota is now on the same playing field as everyone else what is so wrong with that? IMO there's nothing wrong with standardization in the equipment in a sport.

Do not know whether you've had opportunity to build vehicle or powerplant to the specified materials/content and measure list that has some relational consistency across most forms of motorsport. Will make assumption you have and are personally and directly familiar.

Based on that assumption, maybe this plays better or can be better related to. What has happened here has similarity to a baseball team that has followed to the absolute same of all its competitors every specification of materials/content and measure, but is performing too well, being then required to play with fewer on field players than another and/or stretching the fences and baselines for only the one, simply to create an opportunity for more "equal" outcomes.

And some will argue based on perhaps some measure, say - now the players of the team that has been winning too much reach their extended run to first base in the same 3.2 seconds as the others - that there has been no disadvantage applied, just equality reached. Quite like - now the horsepower will be the same. "Dumbing down" is a term that may have applicability. No need strive for better, cause someone will step in and cripple those legitimately successfull.

As can likely be seen/interpreted from the above, there is no pushing here for "doing something" to throttle the successfull. If this means some one (team, manufacturer, driver, whatever) is repeatedly and consistently burying others while remaining within the accepted bounds of the defined competitive environment ---- so be it. Unfortunately, the entertainment value in this does not play well in many places.

If what has been reported is accurate (always suspect) and a manufacturer is completely within specos for engine material/content and measure and only they are required to "compete" with a more restrictive component --- that's not motorsports competition as has been done here as team owner, mechanic, and member of governing body(ies) over the now decades. Actually that's not competition anywhere.

[GrimlockAutobot]

Originally Posted by Bob Tanner

Better go back and do some research on how NA__AR treated Toyota, in comparision to MOPAR when it re-entered Cup. You're an intelligent guy. I'll let you do the remembering and report back.

I honestly don't remember that scenario. Please explain it to me. But, IMO NASCAR didn't mistreat Toyota. They let them enter NASCAR with a newer engine that was obviously head and shoulders above and beyond the older motors other teams are using. Looks like favoritism on the surface.

Then, when a car maker like GM comes up with something that is on par with Toyota, NASCAR drags their feet in letting them use it.

NASCAR made the mistake of letting Toyota enter the series with a motor that was newer and more technologically advanced than the rest of the teams' older engine packages.

Now they're trying to right the ship....and they should do it in Sprint cup too.

[DodgeFB]

I wish they would let all of them bring their best and best wins the race. I hate to see any of them "punished" for doing a good job.

[GrimlockAutobot]

Originally Posted by wingkey1

Do not know whether you've had opportunity to build vehicle or powerplant to the specified materials/content and measure list that has some relational consistency across most forms of motorsport. Will make assumption you have and are personally and directly familiar.

Based on that assumption, maybe this plays better or can be better related to. What has happened here has similarity to a baseball team that has followed to the absolute same of all its competitors every specification of materials/content and measure, but is performing too well, being then required to play with fewer on field players than another and/or stretching the fences and baselines for only the one, simply to create an opportunity for more "equal" outcomes.

And some will argue based on perhaps some measure, say - now the players of the team that has been winning too much reach their extended run to first base in the same 3.2 seconds as the others - that there has been no disadvantage applied, just equality reached. Quite like - now the horsepower will be the same. "Dumbing down" is a term that may have applicability. No need strive for better, cause someone will step in and cripple those legitimately successfull.

As can likely be seen/interpreted from the above, there is no pushing here for "doing something" to throttle the successfull. If this means some one (team, manufacturer, driver, whatever) is repeatedly and consistently burying others while remaining within the accepted bounds of the defined competitive environment ---- so be it. Unfortunately, the entertainment value in this does not play well in many places.

If what has been reported is accurate (always suspect) and a manufacturer is completely within specos for engine material/content and measure and only they are required to "compete" with a more restrictive component --- that's not motorsports competition as has been done here as team owner, mechanic, and member of governing body(ies) over the now decades. Actually that's not competition anywhere.

Did you see my quote from the AP? The engine that Toyota was using is newer and therefore more advanced technology that the older engines that the other teams are using.

Also, to make matters worse NASCAR is dragging their feet in letting GM use the motor that is on par with Toyota's technology.

When you take something that is newer with newer technology and race it against something older, that is putting the rest of the series at a disadvantage. NASCAR brought Toyota and made them EQUAL to the older engine packages that were being run in the series.

Toyota went from being too advanced (with handcuffed competition.) to being at the SAME level. NOT below the other teams.

The complaints seem to be assuming that Toyota is now at a disadvantage.......NASCAR didn't suddenly make them race a 1980's Corolla againt the rest of the field.

[wingkey1]

Been searching to verify personal "memory" item.

Seem to recall the Toyo engine being used in NNS is fundamentally the same as has been run in the trucks over the past several years.

A/the "new" Toyo engine was introduced for Cup level.

Can't as yet find info to verify. Am wondering if perhaps many (me too) are getting lost in/on information across the two racing series.

[DodgeFB]

Anyone have any ideas on what will happen "if" Toyota keeps winning races. Adding weight???

[Racer Duck]

Originally Posted by GrimlockAutobot

There is no gifts to the other teams......they'll have to earn victories like everyone else......only now there's no huge disadvantage to the other teams. Things are now equal.

Toyota is now on the same playing field as everyone else what is so wrong with that? IMO there's nothing wrong with standardization in the equipment in a sport.

First, a direct quote from the article (for reference, so nobody has to go back an read it)

NASCAR recently sent 10 different motors for testing, and found that David Reutimann's Toyota was the best with an estimated 3 percent horsepower advantage over the competition. JGR's No. 18 car — which Busch drove to victory at Chicago right before the motors were tested — was second.
Roush Fenway Racing's Nos. 16 and 17 Fords were next, followed by JGR's No. 20 car, which has won nine races with four different drivers this season.
JGR builds its own motors for its two Nationwide Series cars. The rest of the Toyota engines in that series and the Craftsman Truck Series come from Triad Racing Development, a Bill Davis-owned company that leases engines.

So, after Chicagoland NASCAR pulled 10 (TEN) engines (supposedly random selections) and sent them to Mooresville to be "tested". What they found was that Toyata AND Ford dominated the top 5. But because the 'Yota drivers have been having more success than anyone else, it must be they have an unfair advantage, right?

Let's look at that one for a minute with a look at the records for the previous 3 seasons:
Year Wins (Chevy, Ford, Dodge, Toyota) Champ (Name, Make, W, T5, T10)
2005 (14 12 11 0) Truex Jr (Chevy 6 15 22)
2006 (22 8 5 0) Harvick (Chevy 9 23 32)
2007 (22 7 4) Edwards (Ford 4 13 21)
2008 (4 3 0 14) Boyer (Chevy 1 8 18) <thru 21 of 35 races>

So, for the past 3 seasons Chevy has dominated the Nationwide series .. until this year. That's reason enough to decide Toyota must be cheating. Not the status quo, for sure. Or is it because GM has dumped so much money into NA$CAR in the past, and is falling on hard times (mostly their own doing) causing them to "defund" much of their NA$CAR money pits. So, naturally, NA$CAR has to do something to get GM $$$ back!!! After all, nobody wants money that's been touched by them #### Japs!!! (Well, even if they do, we gotta protect our own.)

BTW: the 'Toyota record for wins goes like this

• Kyle Busch - 5 (in 2 different cars)
• Tony Stewart - 5 (in car #20)
• Denny Hamlin - 3 (in car #20)
• Joey Logano - 1 (in car #20)

Isn't it interesting that only one owner is responsible for this: Joe Gibbs Racing. Yet, all Toyota teams must suffer...

Take a look back at the engine test results:

1. Reutimann - Triad Toyota
2. Busch - JGR Toyota
3. Biffle - Roush Ford
4. Kenseth - Roush Ford
5. Stewart - JGR Toyota

So why isn't Ford also "sanctioned"? Oh yeah, I forgot .. they ain't doing so well this season... After all, it's all about winning, isn't it?

Originally Posted by GrimlockAutobot

Based on the quote from the AP ... what Toyota was able to do was unfair.....they had an advantage because their technology is newer not because they had better engineers or mechanics in the garage. GM has a new motor too.....one that NASCAR won't let them use, which is also on par with what Toyota is currently using. How is that for unfair? The other cars aren't even at the same stage as Toyota's NEWER engine. Why would NASCAR even let a new car maker in without letting the other makers use the same advanced equipment?

So, it's Toyota's fault the Big 3 have been mired in "old technology" for(ever?) the recent past?

Everybody at NA$CAR had ample opportunity to evaluate Toyota's technology against the Big 3 and deemed it "competitive" even though the records show their entry into Nationwide was less than competitive just this past year. What Toyota did was "un-American": they looked and watched and studied and compared and, yes, even copied. But they made improvements that moved them to the front of the pack. They didn't cry foul or go whining to anyone. They did what AMERICANS have always done, put their heads down and worked hard and didn't stop until they were the best.

But now that upstart, Toyota, has disrupted the status quo, NA$CAR has just gotta find a way to get GM back on top.

Maybe if GM had spent more time working on their R07 instead of trying to sell Hummers in the face of escalating fuel prices they might be back in the game.

As can be evidenced by the responses to this thread, overwhelming disapproval of NA$CAR's action against Toyota is definitely hurting NA$CAR's credibility.

But the bright side is the 'Yota crowd is gonna take NA$CAR's best shot and still dominate. They are the NEW AMERICANS!

[Racer Duck]

Originally Posted by wingkey1

Been searching to verify personal "memory" item.

Seem to recall the Toyo engine being used in NNS is fundamentally the same as has been run in the trucks over the past several years.

A/the "new" Toyo engine was introduced for Cup level.

Can't as yet find info to verify. Am wondering if perhaps many (me too) are getting lost in/on information across the two racing series.

I remember that also. In fact it was the cornerstone of their "application" to NA$CAR to enter the then Busch Series: nothing new in the engine compartment.

[BiscuitMan]

Originally Posted by DodgeFB

Anyone have any ideas on what will happen "if" Toyota keeps winning races. Adding weight???

NASCAR seems to base their "restriction" on the MWR Toyota engine. In fact the wins have been with JGR engines.

It would be interesting to find out that the difference is not horsepower, but something else.... mainly rpms.

Joe Gibbs Racing has long been experimenting with engine oils and even markets some of it products to the public. If they have discovered how to make less friction and produce more rpms with their engines, then they could keep winning races.... NASCAR will look like a fool, Oh! Maybe they already look like a fool with this "restriction" on the Toyota Nationwide engine.

[Racer Duck]

Originally Posted by BiscuitMan

NASCAR seems to base their "restriction" on the MWR Toyota engine. In fact the wins have been with JGR engines.

It would be interesting to find out that the difference is not horsepower, but something else.... mainly rpms.

Joe Gibbs Racing has long been experimenting with engine oils and even markets some of it products to the public. If they have discovered how to make less friction and produce more rpms with their engines, then they could keep winning races.... NASCAR will look like a fool, Oh! Maybe they already look like a fool with this "restriction" on the Toyota Nationwide engine.

Yep, we use JGR oil in our racers. JGR claims the oil alone gives 1-2 hp. Maybe HMS and the others need to start using Joe's oil?

[erb224]

Props to the engine guys at MWR (or should I say TRD) for making the most horsepower. They can hang their hat on that till Reuti gets them a NWS win.

I'm not sure how they can say they are equaling the playing field... Now TRD has 4 days to try to make more horse power with a larger restrictor plate. You'd think that would take some R&D....