[Bob Tanner]

Why does NA__AR demand a full course caution whenever it puts out the yellow flag at one of its two road courses? Every other road races I've seen utilize local cautions at the wreck site only. Why is NA__AR different?

If they want to run road courses, why not run by accepted road course criteria?

[Quality88]

Not only that, why does the same situation get a caution when the first time it happened no caution came out. Anybody else wonder why when Hamlin spun there was no caution, but later in the race when someone else spun in the same spot, the caution waved?

[Bob Tanner]

Originally Posted by Quality88

Not only that, why does the same situation get a caution when the first time it happened no caution came out. Anybody else wonder why when Hamlin spun there was no caution, but later in the race when someone else spun in the same spot, the caution waved?

Junior wasn't about to be lapped?
<Just kidding!!!!!> I irritate enough people without getting into Junior discussions!

[Measure]

How exactly does a local caution work? Speed through the rest of the track but slow down for a couple of corners?

The idea seems chaotic to me, so uh, how does it work?

(embarrassingly, i live three miles from a local road course outside of seattle, and have never been to a race)

[Bob Tanner]

Originally Posted by Measure

How exactly does a local caution work? Speed through the rest of the track but slow down for a couple of corners?

The idea seems chaotic to me, so uh, how does it work?

(embarrassingly, i live three miles from a local road course outside of seattle, and have never been to a race)

Basically, on a road course, the yellow is put out a safe distance from the area where the accident happened. After the pass the accident, they can race the rest of the course until they come to the local caution area again..It speeds up things a lot, and for road courses, makes much ore sense to me.

Where a full courses caution screws things up is in regards to pit stops. For example, the first yellow at Sears Point causes a number of drivers to lose 15-19 spots, by giving the drivers who hadn't pitted a "free pit stop."

In my opinion, this is one area NA__AR needs to look into if they want to continue having road and/or street races.

[BiscuitMan]

Originally Posted by Bob Tanner

Why does NA__AR demand a full course caution whenever it puts out the yellow flag at one of its two road courses? Every other road races I've seen utilize local cautions at the wreck site only. Why is NA__AR different?

If they want to run road courses, why not run by accepted road course criteria?

Here's a comment about "local yellows" used in NASCAR road course races. It may explain why "local yelows" are not used on road courses.

The "blue flag" is used to indicate a local caution on a road course. It is not used on ovals. In the wake of a fatal corner worker crash at Daytona International Speedway in 2004 in a non-NASCAR sanctioned (but suing track workers) race, NASCAR has become reluctant in recent years to use the "blue flag", opting to full course cautions if any safety team members have to approach the track in an attempt to give safety workers a safer environment to inspect debris by forcing all cars under safety car speed, instead of race speed, to remove debris. The rationale is most of the field will be packed together while cleanup is happening, instead of being at speed.

See NASCAR rules and regulations - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

[Bob Tanner]

Originally Posted by BiscuitMan

Here's a comment about "local yellows" used in NASCAR road course races. It may explain why "local yelows" are not used on road courses.



See NASCAR rules and regulations - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Thanks for the explanation, Biscuit.

I still don't agree with their decision but... It's their game and not mine and it affects me not in the least so...

[wingkey1]

Originally Posted by BiscuitMan

Here's a comment about "local yellows" used in NASCAR road course races. It may explain why "local yelows" are not used on road courses.



See NASCAR rules and regulations - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Good stuff. Many may continue to question or not accept, but ---

We have done "corner person" duty. Both the simple "show the caution" and the "over the wall to assist the driver" stuff. We've been there when peers/partners have been run into, most with not so serious results, others with notably more.

Decisions around how extensive the caution segment (physical and duration) are driven by safety, some of which is pre-defined, and some of which is situationally defined. Decision elements associated with safety for this topic area include but are not limited to track configuration, vehicle types, segment speed, level of competition/competitors, --- actually this list may be too long and include too many situationally dependent choices/elements.

Like many of lifes opportunities for involvement, there is a level of understanding that can only be expanded/enhanced/completed by the doing. And there are no words or pictures that adequately serve in/as substitute.

Local tracks/clubs/racing organizations are seeking volunteer help of all kinds always. This is how we were presented the opportunity and priviledge to "do". Anyone can, most won't.

[Bob Tanner]

Originally Posted by wingkey1

Good stuff. Many may continue to question or not accept, but ---

We have done "corner person" duty. Both the simple "show the caution" and the "over the wall to assist the driver" stuff. We've been there when peers/partners have been run into, most with not so serious results, others with notably more.

Decisions around how extensive the caution segment (physical and duration) are driven by safety, some of which is pre-defined, and some of which is situationally defined. Decision elements associated with safety for this topic area include but are not limited to track configuration, vehicle types, segment speed, level of competition/competitors, --- actually this list may be too long and include too many situationally dependent choices/elements.

Like many of lifes opportunities for involvement, there is a level of understanding that can only be expanded/enhanced/completed by the doing. And there are no words or pictures that adequately serve in/as substitute.

Local tracks/clubs/racing organizations are seeking volunteer help of all kinds always. This is how we were presented the opportunity and priviledge to "do". Anyone can, most won't.

As usual, good stuff, Wing. Good insight.

I admit, it's easy, from a spectator's point of view, to want someone else to go over the wall during a blue flag. Totally different when you do it yourself.

In my younger days I did a lot of volunteer work at my local tracks, and a few times, competed. Never had the opportunity to do road course work. Too old and too don't move as rapidly as I once did (been there; got the tee shirt?) so I'll leave the heavy lifting to you kids.

Your post gave me pause to rethink.

[Racer Duck]

I applauded NASCAR's decision to stop the pace car (and the field) at Sonoma instead of going around another lap. And while I applaud NASCAR for their decision to err on the side of safety, I do have a gripe about their cautions.

At a recent race, not a road course, a caution was waved because of debris on the track (a single piece of debris.) 5 laps later the green was waved. Why? If it takes 4 laps for the track people to pick up a piece of debris, then they need to be fired and hire half a dozen kids from the local elementary school to do the job .. I'll guarantee they'll do it better, faster, and cheaper!!!

It's become almost a standard that any yellow flag will result in at least 5 laps of caution "parades"...

But, we all .. ahem .. know the answer, don't we? It's so the commercial break can be long enough to satisfy the tv folks. And on rare occasions so the "pet" teams have a chance to make multiple repairs to their damaged vehicle... (I said "rare occasions". It's not like it happens EVERY race!!!)

[wingkey1]

Originally Posted by Racer Duck

I applauded NASCAR's decision to stop the pace car (and the field) at Sonoma instead of going around another lap. And while I applaud NASCAR for their decision to err on the side of safety, I do have a gripe about their cautions.

At a recent race, not a road course, a caution was waved because of debris on the track (a single piece of debris.) 5 laps later the green was waved. Why? If it takes 4 laps for the track people to pick up a piece of debris, then they need to be fired and hire half a dozen kids from the local elementary school to do the job .. I'll guarantee they'll do it better, faster, and cheaper!!!

It's become almost a standard that any yellow flag will result in at least 5 laps of caution "parades"...

But, we all .. ahem .. know the answer, don't we? It's so the commercial break can be long enough to satisfy the tv folks. And on rare occasions so the "pet" teams have a chance to make multiple repairs to their damaged vehicle... (I said "rare occasions". It's not like it happens EVERY race!!!)

First - we do believe a number of concessions are made as a result of the broadcast(ing) media(s) in every single top level sport.

Second - (and please note that we NEVER got involved at the broadcasted event level so it was not a consideration within the following) having done Flag, Judge, Head Judge, Corner, and more, we've been the butt of jokes, ridicule, question, derision for - "too many caution laps". When a caution flies for an on track event (some are of the pre-announced/planned type), the world and life of those responsible for the administration of the event get real busy. Real busy, and not always lilly white clear/clean. Radio traffic and associated decision making between Scoring, Flag, Director, Safety, Judging (and likely more we've forgotten) get intense, primarily because all really do want to get it right. The restart position alone can be challenging. From many experiences, it is highly likely the simple - remove "things" from the track activities - ARE NOT the time extension culprit.

There are times we've pondered the thought - "It's a caution, and the pits will not open before the green again flies". Why? Because adding the pit thing can further intensify/complicate the restart thing, especially should an error be made on the part of a driver or team (pit before OK to do so), or God forbid, an official who opens the pit before all current running orders are established. BRAIN DRAIN. To avoid this potential for controvery we get to the emotionally driven decision - no pitting just because it's a caution. Not a position or argument we'd ever expect to win, just an emotional thing from one having felt the pressure to sort it all out, right now, and correctly.

So, are we ("I" for those who that bothers or makes in some manner uncomfortable or inclined toward psycological eval) making excuse or granting absolution to/for those in the event administrative positions at the top levels? In a word - NO.

Yet on the other hand we are saying that judging what is witnessed during an event caution solely by "how long it takes to get the things off the track", lacks completeness.