[oncea3fan]

kyle difinitly needs to mature, but he has the fire burning in him that I don't think I've ever seen in jr.

let see what kyle looks like when he's in his 9th year.

[wingkey1]

Originally Posted by Phils20

Ya know, this months NASCAR Scene has an interesting article in it. It polled NASCAR fans, and asked them to rate the drivers in eight categories.

Awareness
Appeal
Notice
Trend
Influence
Trust
Endorse
Aspiration

Would be interesting to see if results would be different if questions associated with skill, competitiveness, and other attributes associated with performing well in the sport were the basis of measure. Some of the missing would likely show up, and it would likely be the poll all would rather "win".

[bayou_bengals]

This is a collective response to every comment. Remember this is all friendly discussion. Don't think I'm being a smart mouth. Everyone has an opinion. This however is not opinion. It's fact. Through six races Dale Jr. is more consistent. If he would get up front and play the "checkers or wreckers" game, he would be more "exciting." And yes he hasn't won. But the race he finished 2nd in Carl Edwards failed inspection so....... I do realize that the season is far from over. I really feel like Dale is going to continue to be this consistent though. One more thing. The reason he finished 40th at Fontana was because someone else couldn't drive. He had a good car. So I can't help but believe that he would have been nothing but top 10 so far had that not taken place. Shoulda, Coulda, Woulda though right?

[LSC9901]

Opinions based of verifiable facts are always truly enjoyed and encouraged.

[wingkey1]

Originally Posted by bayou_bengals

This is a collective response to every comment. Remember this is all friendly discussion. Don't think I'm being a smart mouth. Everyone has an opinion. This however is not opinion. It's fact. Through six races Dale Jr. is more consistent. If he would get up front and play the "checkers or wreckers" game, he would be more "exciting." And yes he hasn't won. But the race he finished 2nd in Carl Edwards failed inspection so....... I do realize that the season is far from over. I really feel like Dale is going to continue to be this consistent though. One more thing. The reason he finished 40th at Fontana was because someone else couldn't drive. He had a good car. So I can't help but believe that he would have been nothing but top 10 so far had that not taken place. Shoulda, Coulda, Woulda though right?

For more fun(?) with numbers see following and then proceed through the drop down boxes. Guess with right work, enough available data/numbers could make Daffy Duck the best(?)

NASCAR.COM

[johnsonfan_48]

Originally Posted by WestCoast

Right you are "stats are stats", but you must admit that Kyle has been more exciting than Jr, and from the entertainment point of view, that's all that matters.

I have to say it has been more exciting watching Jr race than Kyle and I dont care for either driver that much. If you are looking to watch a guy over drive a car for 200 laps then crash busch is your guy.

It was at speedweeks and actually started cheering for dale.

[Racer Duck]

Let's see .. YTD stats though dry and boring give some indication which driver is more "active" than the other. By active I mean making passes, leading laps, coming from behind, etc.. Everyone wants their driver to be "active" so, let's see how these 2 guys have fared so far.

Passing: NASCAR has something they call "Quality Passes" which I haven't the foggiest what the criteria is for a "Quality Pass", but they claim Kyle has 304 while Jr. has 278. I think that means Kyle's been passing more than Jr. A point for Kyle.

Score so far: Kyle - 1; Jr - 0

Laps Lead: Again NASCAR statistics give some insight to which driver has been in the front more than the other. There's two different stats for leading: miles and laps: Kyle leads both with 597 miles and 337 laps lead while Jr has 227 miles and 237 laps lead. Another point for Kyle.

Score so far: Kyle - 2; Jr - 0

Coming from Behind: Ya have to look for this one, but NASCAR has something they call "Closers" which is basically the average number of spots gained in a race (Mr. Gilliland leads this category with 3.7 spots gained per race.) Kyle is shown as gaining 2.0 spots per race while Jr is shown losing 1.33 spots per race. Looks like another point for Kyle.

Score so far: Kyle - 3; Jr - 0

Average Running Position: This one takes into account the running position on every lap of the race and averages over the number of laps run. There have been only two drivers to run every one of the 2048 laps: Jeff Burton and Kevin Harvick. Kyle has run 1989 laps and had an average running position of 9.75 while Jr has run 2001 laps but has an average running position of 11.92. So, on the one hand Kyle consistently runs higher than Jr, but has missed more laps than Jr. I think this one is split, so no points to either as there's no clear domination.

Score so far: Kyle - 3; Jr - 0

Laps on the Lead Lap: This one counts the number of laps the driver has been on the lead lap for each race. Not surprisingly, Jeff Burton has been on the lead lap for all but 3 of the 2048 laps run so far this season. That's quite an accomplishment!!! Let's see how our 2 boys did: Kyle was able to stay on the lead lap 1605 times while Jr managed to do it 1816 times. One point for Jr.

Score so far: Kyle - 3; Jr - 1

Well there's other statistics you can pore over if you've a mind to, but I think these serve my purpose. What is my purpose, you ask? Well to see if what I think is backed up with statistics. And I think it is: Kyle is the more exciting driver - he passes more, runs higher, leads more laps and has won more races than Jr. The only edge Jr has is staying on the track longer and on the lead lap longer than Kyle. Sadly, while Kyle is improving his position in the race, Jr is doing just the opposite .. not good for fan (or sponsor) appeal.

And I could care less which one wins the popularity vote, or sells the most junk (aka souvenirs), or is in the most commercials, or has won the most money (Kyle has, by the way) or gets the most hype (I think this one is obvious ). I'm most interested in seeing action on the track and Kyle seems to provide more of it than Jr.

[Bob Tanner]

Originally Posted by Racer Duck

And I could care less which one wins the popularity vote, or sells the most junk (aka souvenirs), or is in the most commercials, or has won the most money (Kyle has, by the way) or gets the most hype (I think this one is obvious ). I'm most interested in seeing action on the track and Kyle seems to provide more of it than Jr.

Feelings such as those above make The Family France, Mark Dyer, and a measurable portion of the Chinese manufacturing industry very sad indeed.

Don't you realize that today, racing is passe? NA__AR finds it easier to sell personality than it does racing.

Tsk. Tsk. Tsk.

[casa]

Originally Posted by WestCoast

Right you are "stats are stats", but you must admit that Kyle has been more exciting than Jr, and from the entertainment point of view, that's all that matters.

I don't find him exciting at all. I find him arrogant and in some cases out of control. That in my opinion is not entertaining.

[casa]

Originally Posted by Racer Duck

Let's see .. YTD stats though dry and boring give some indication which driver is more "active" than the other. By active I mean making passes, leading laps, coming from behind, etc.. Everyone wants their driver to be "active" so, let's see how these 2 guys have fared so far.

Passing: NASCAR has something they call "Quality Passes" which I haven't the foggiest what the criteria is for a "Quality Pass", but they claim Kyle has 304 while Jr. has 278. I think that means Kyle's been passing more than Jr. A point for Kyle.

Score so far: Kyle - 1; Jr - 0

Laps Lead: Again NASCAR statistics give some insight to which driver has been in the front more than the other. There's two different stats for leading: miles and laps: Kyle leads both with 597 miles and 337 laps lead while Jr has 227 miles and 237 laps lead. Another point for Kyle.

Score so far: Kyle - 2; Jr - 0

Coming from Behind: Ya have to look for this one, but NASCAR has something they call "Closers" which is basically the average number of spots gained in a race (Mr. Gilliland leads this category with 3.7 spots gained per race.) Kyle is shown as gaining 2.0 spots per race while Jr is shown losing 1.33 spots per race. Looks like another point for Kyle.

Score so far: Kyle - 3; Jr - 0

Average Running Position: This one takes into account the running position on every lap of the race and averages over the number of laps run. There have been only two drivers to run every one of the 2048 laps: Jeff Burton and Kevin Harvick. Kyle has run 1989 laps and had an average running position of 9.75 while Jr has run 2001 laps but has an average running position of 11.92. So, on the one hand Kyle consistently runs higher than Jr, but has missed more laps than Jr. I think this one is split, so no points to either as there's no clear domination.

Score so far: Kyle - 3; Jr - 0

Laps on the Lead Lap: This one counts the number of laps the driver has been on the lead lap for each race. Not surprisingly, Jeff Burton has been on the lead lap for all but 3 of the 2048 laps run so far this season. That's quite an accomplishment!!! Let's see how our 2 boys did: Kyle was able to stay on the lead lap 1605 times while Jr managed to do it 1816 times. One point for Jr.

Score so far: Kyle - 3; Jr - 1

Well there's other statistics you can pore over if you've a mind to, but I think these serve my purpose. What is my purpose, you ask? Well to see if what I think is backed up with statistics. And I think it is: Kyle is the more exciting driver - he passes more, runs higher, leads more laps and has won more races than Jr. The only edge Jr has is staying on the track longer and on the lead lap longer than Kyle. Sadly, while Kyle is improving his position in the race, Jr is doing just the opposite .. not good for fan (or sponsor) appeal.

And I could care less which one wins the popularity vote, or sells the most junk (aka souvenirs), or is in the most commercials, or has won the most money (Kyle has, by the way) or gets the most hype (I think this one is obvious ). I'm most interested in seeing action on the track and Kyle seems to provide more of it than Jr.

I would think staying on the track longer would be a plus. What do you mean by seeing action on the track. Do you mean wrecking people and doing stupid things? Then Kyle is your man. I don't think Jr. has any problem with fan support or sponsor appeal!

[Phils20]

Originally Posted by casa

I don't find him exciting at all. I find him arrogant and in some cases out of control. That in my opinion is not entertaining.

So would you just like to see a parade? I can't stand Kyle's personality. I do think he is a bit of a jerk.

BUT, he actually drives the race car. Races the race car.

I don't think anyone can deny that.

Someone actually said in this thread that they don't want to watch someone overdrive a car the entire race.

That leave me speechless. It truly does. That is EXACTLY what this sport should be about. Now I'm not talking wreckless driving, but I do think you should be driving hard every lap. Every time out.

If not then stay off the track. I'm so tired of these drivers stroking it around all day, and being happy with second, or third, or 10th.

[casa]

Originally Posted by Phils20

So would you just like to see a parade? I can't stand Kyle's personality. I do think he is a bit of a jerk.

BUT, he actually drives the race car. Races the race car.

I don't think anyone can deny that.

Someone actually said in this thread that they don't want to watch someone overdrive a car the entire race.

That leave me speechless. It truly does. That is EXACTLY what this sport should be about. Now I'm not talking wreckless driving, but I do think you should be driving hard every lap. Every time out.

If not then stay off the track. I'm so tired of these drivers stroking it around all day, and being happy with second, or third, or 10th.

There is a difference in driving hard and deliberately having no regard for any other driver. I think this is the attitude that Kyle has. His attitude is to win no matter whether it is fair or not.

There does not have to be a parade. There are some who are better drivers, some who have better cars. You don't have to deliberately wreck others to win. Jeff Burton does it. Kyle has no respect for any other driver.

[Racer Duck]

Originally Posted by casa

There is a difference in driving hard and deliberately having no regard for any other driver. I think this is the attitude that Kyle has. His attitude is to win no matter whether it is fair or not.

There does not have to be a parade. There are some who are better drivers, some who have better cars. You don't have to deliberately wreck others to win. Jeff Burton does it. Kyle has no respect for any other driver.

Did I misunderstand you? Jeff Burton deliberately wrecks others to win? I think I would have to disagree with that statement.

I suppose you can prove your allegations? Or are they merely opinions?

[Phils20]

Originally Posted by Racer Duck

Did I misunderstand you? Jeff Burton deliberately wrecks others to win? I think I would have to disagree with that statement.

I suppose you can prove your allegations? Or are they merely opinions?

I think what he meant to say was that JEff Burton races without wrecking other drivers. I could be wrong, but that is how I'm seeing it.

I think the words just got a bit jumbled!

Casa, am I right?

[Racer Duck]

Originally Posted by casa

I would think staying on the track longer would be a plus. What do you mean by seeing action on the track. Do you mean wrecking people and doing stupid things? Then Kyle is your man. I don't think Jr. has any problem with fan support or sponsor appeal!

Did I say staying on the track was not a plus?

I consider action on the track to be when drivers are actively trying to improve their position, no matter whether it's from last place or 2nd place. While I understand the mentality that belongs to points racing, I don't agree with it. I do not approve of bump and run (aka, the chrome horn), nor have I ever condoned any driver for using such tactics. There have been other threads here where we have discussed ad nauseum those that do, those that don't and those who became famous for such tactics. I do not intend to re-open that subject, nor will I participate in it if it is reopened.

Wrecks do not excite me, never had, never will - I am not one of those people who slows down to gaze over scenes of wreckage on the highway, and I do not care to see fifteen replays of wrecks on the track either.

Who is wrecking other people and doing stupid things? I never claimed either driver did any such thing.

If Jr continues to finish lower than he starts his fan appeal and sponsor appeal will dwindle. That is a fact of life.

One last comment: I have not ever claimed either Jr or Shrub were good drivers, nor have I ever claimed to be a fan of either. What I have said is I'm beginning to like Shrub more because he seems to be maturing and that I think Shrub is a more exciting driver to watch than Jr. That doesn't mean I believe Shrub walks on water or even that he's on a short list of drivers that are favorites. Nor have I ever stated which driver I believe has more pure driving talent.