[PettyBlue]

Carl Kiekhaefer.2 years 55/56.Two championships,Tim Flock-55 and Buck Baker-56.Out of 190 races total ran,52 wins,116 top 5's,139 top 10's with 51 poles.Best part is he got under Big Bill France's skin.Great job Carl!Those Chrysler 300's kicked all butt,go Mopar,lol.

[simple simon]

very impressive stats PB

we have this type of discussion a lot in other sports .... a running back can have 2 record setting seasons and people will talk about how great he is ..... but people will bring up his longevity ..... i think that will be an issue here

2 great seasons .... but is it enough to name him the greatest ?

[PettyBlue]

Originally Posted by simple simon

very impressive stats PB

we have this type of discussion a lot in other sports .... a running back can have 2 record setting seasons and people will talk about how great he is ..... but people will bring up his longevity ..... i think that will be an issue here

2 great seasons .... but is it enough to name him the greatest ?

Yes it is,Big Bill had to get rid of Carl.That is not Carl's fault.

[LSC9901]

Unfortunately there are far to many fans today who would look at this name and say "Who ???" Truly impressive but for most, it was just to long ago.

[PettyBlue]

Originally Posted by LSC9901

Unfortunately there are far to many fans today who would look at this name and say "Who ???" Truly impressive but for most, it was just to long ago.

Not I.Lol.

[LSC9901]

Originally Posted by PettyBlue

Not I.Lol.

Nor myself but I'm sure there are plenty of "fans" out there today who don't even know the name Buddy Baker.

[PettyBlue]

Originally Posted by LSC9901

Nor myself but I'm sure there are plenty of "fans" out there today who don't even know the name Buddy Baker.

True,sad but true.I just liked anyone that could put a bur in Big Bill's butt back then.He was not the God some think he was then and some think now of themself.

[oncea3fan]

ok. I'll bite!

didn't carl have like 7 cars , in a time when there wasn't hardly any full blow race only team/shops = no competition.
and only running years,
how many drivers/ teams today have went back to back in championships.

one of the best , yeah ok. I'll agree , but the best of all time , naw.

I 'd hate to say it .......but HMS

[PettyBlue]

Originally Posted by oncea3fan

ok. I'll bite!

didn't carl have like 7 cars , in a time when there wasn't hardly any full blow race only team/shops = no competition.
and only running years,
how many drivers/ teams today have went back to back in championships.

one of the best , yeah ok. I'll agree , but the best of all time , naw.

I 'd hate to say it .......but HMS

Say as you will but here are the stats, Carl Kiekhaefer Grand National Owner Statistics - Racing-Reference.info until Big Bill had to run Carl out of Nascar for stinking up Bill's show.Can't have anyone wizz in a France's bowl of corn flake's now can we?

[LSC9901]

Originally Posted by oncea3fan

ok. I'll bite!

didn't carl have like 7 cars , in a time when there wasn't hardly any full blow race only team/shops = no competition.
and only running years,
how many drivers/ teams today have went back to back in championships.

one of the best , yeah ok. I'll agree , but the best of all time , naw.

I 'd hate to say it .......but HMS

I really believe that you just have to accept what was what when it happened. There are many records that could be disputed in any discussion. How about total numbers of wins. Many of the wins occurred at a time when far more than 36 races were being run. Should those records be nullified because that isn't the same standard as today ? Arguments could be made about the number of Richard Petty's wins because the standard is so different today. Just because Karl had more cars than anyone else doesn't make a difference in the record books. There will always be disagreement about who, what, when, where and why but none the less ... records are records. Break 'em if you can.

[BiscuitMan]

Originally Posted by LSC9901

I really believe that you just have to accept what was what when it happened. There are many records that could be disputed in any discussion. How about total numbers of wins. Many of the wins occurred at a time when far more than 36 races were being run. Should those records be nullified because that isn't the same standard as today ? Arguments could be made about the number of Richard Petty's wins because the standard is so different today. Just because Karl had more cars than anyone else doesn't make a difference in the record books. There will always be disagreement about who, what, when, where and why but none the less ... records are records. Break 'em if you can.

I just went to the stats page and here are the win ratios:

Carl Kiekhaefer 27% win ratio

Rick Hendrick 7% win ratio

Petty Enterprises 9% win ratio

Richard Childress 5% win ratio

Of course dollar amounts are with Hendrick and Richard Childress. That's pretty impressive for Carl Kiekhaefer.

[LSC9901]

Originally Posted by BiscuitMan

I just went to the stats page and here are the win ratios:

Carl Kiekhaefer 27% win ratio

Rick Hendrick 7% win ratio

Petty Enterprises 9% win ratio

Richard Childress 5% win ratio

Of course dollar amounts are with Hendrick and Richard Childress. That's pretty impressive for Carl Kiekhaefer.

See now this is another one of those possible inconsistencies. How many races did each run ? That can have a varied effect on the numbers. Somehow to get a more equal relationship you must create an equal data base.

[BiscuitMan]

Originally Posted by LSC9901

See now this is another one of those possible inconsistencies. How many races did each run ? That can have a varied effect on the numbers. Somehow to get a more equal relationship you must create an equal data base.

It is what it is - data.

• Petty Enterprises has raced in 2825 races and won 268 times (actually 269, but Richard was disqualified).
• Rick Hendrick has raced in 2407 races and won 167 times.
• Richard Childress has raced in 1668 races and won 87 times.

I think Kiekhaefer did pretty well with his cars in 190 races and won 52 times, and in just 2 years.

[LSC9901]

Originally Posted by BiscuitMan

It is what it is - data.

• Petty Enterprises has raced in 2825 races and won 268 times (actually 269, but Richard was disqualified).
• Rick Hendrick has raced in 2407 races and won 167 times.
• Richard Childress has raced in 1668 races and won 87 times.

I think Kiekhaefer did pretty well with his cars in 190 races and won 52 times, and in just 2 years.

I do totally agree that the data is what it is but ...... until all relative numbers are the same there will always be room for discussion. That said 52 out of 190 is a nice percentage. Imagine the numbers if he had raced in 2500 races !!!

[Racer Duck]

I'm having trouble with the data. So I have a question: how many races were run in 1955? 1956? Surely it has to be more than the 45 & 56, respectively, as the record books say for Kiekhaefer to have run 190 in those 2 years...