[Racer Duck]

Originally Posted by LSC9901

So is the engine they receive 100% ready to drop in the car or do they add things like the carb, exhausts and so on ? Some of that can make a difference. If I remember during the race they talked about different carbs. One gave more power but at the cost of more fuel.... obviously.

usually the way it works, the team rents an engine from an engine builder. they can also "rent" an engineer from the engine builder to tune the engine at the track or use their own. the engine comes with dyno specs and certain "guarantees" so it isn't all money down the drain if something goes wrong (these engines will rent for $25K-$75K per race.) usually all the engines are the same for a race, but some of the bigger shops have different spec'd engines to match different tracks: more horsepower, more torque, better mileage, restrictor plate, etc.. except for Dorton (HMS), most carb specialists aren't part of any particular engine builder's shop. same with exhaust systems. for instance Schoenfeld is in Mooresville in the same industrial park as several of the race teams and actively campaign a short track late model besides working with some of the engine builders. so, the engine builder may or may not supply the carb and exhaust, but they will spec the parts.

that said, there are still variables in play that make a difference, like power steering, cooling (both oil and water), the particular oil being used (JGR makes it's own formulation and they claim it boosts hp by at least 2!!!), oil flow, ignition circuits (boxes, coils, distributors), wiring, special coatings (a whole new technology that's showing lots of promise), heat shielding ... each one can add or rob horsepower. if you were unlucky enough to have all the bads and none of the goods, it could seriously hurt your performance.

[9KK9fan4ever]

Racerduck,

How do teams get a reading on there fuel millage and exact Miles per gallon? They say some teams will run as many laps as it take to run the fuel cell dry. Sometimes a long run at a track like lets say bristol is like 175 laps aprox. teams never run more then like 100 laps (at least not very often) so how do they get a read on there fuel millage if they dont run the tank dry or dont have time to make an entire fuel run durring practice. Is there a way to drain the fuel out of the cell and figure out how many gallons the car used durring lets say a 50 lap run at bristol, or a 10 lap run at Infinieon (sears point)? (or any track, but teams usually can do an entire fuel run at Atlanta becaues it may only be like 40-45 laps with the new smaller fuel cell. I assume maybee teams can do like a 20 lap run, have the driver pull over to the gas pumps and see how many gallons of fuel it takes to get to a full tank of gas, is this how they do it?

Thanks,


Michael

[Quality88]

Originally Posted by 9KK9fan4ever

Racerduck,

How do teams get a reading on there fuel millage and exact Miles per gallon? They say some teams will run as many laps as it take to run the fuel cell dry. Sometimes a long run at a track like lets say bristol is like 175 laps aprox. teams never run more then like 100 laps (at least not very often) so how do they get a read on there fuel millage if they dont run the tank dry or dont have time to make an entire fuel run durring practice. Is there a way to drain the fuel out of the cell and figure out how many gallons the car used durring lets say a 50 lap run at bristol, or a 10 lap run at Infinieon (sears point)? (or any track, but teams usually can do an entire fuel run at Atlanta becaues it may only be like 40-45 laps with the new smaller fuel cell. I assume maybee teams can do like a 20 lap run, have the driver pull over to the gas pumps and see how many gallons of fuel it takes to get to a full tank of gas, is this how they do it?

Thanks,


Michael

RD can probably explain better than I could... Some tracks are run off previous races info. Exception being new cars(COT for example), or tracks where the fuel cell has been cut. Some of it is guestimating as well as a little luck. Like I said though RD, or even Bob or LSC could probably splain better than I.

[Racer Duck]

Good try Q, but it's really simple and very accurate.

Because the team knows exactly how much it takes to fill up the car ('cause they did it back at the shop so they would have exact measurements) they can figure out how much gas was used during the last run by weighing the gas that's left in the dump can and overflow can after they re-fuel. then using a simple conversion formula they can calculate the exact amount of fuel that went into the car, and from that calculate the fuel mileage 'cause they know how many laps the car ran since last fueled. 'course when they get a little sloppy and splash a lot in the pit, or the driver leaves a trail of gas out the overflow, their calculations are a little less accurate...

a side note here: when the car leaves the shop for the track, it's full of fluids. and the exact weight of the car as well as the exact weight at each "corner" is known/written down in a log. as the race/practice progresses, each change is also written down in that log as well as fuel mileage for the run and the environmental and track conditions. this history helps them determine what needs to be changed/adjusted for the next time. this history is commonly called "notes" and is what you hear various people referring to.

[wingkey1]

And some would then ask - how come they know so much and still they get surprised by either running out early, or going longer than expected? Well there's the obvious - no two "runs" are EVER the same. EVER. Even the green ones on the same track with the same number of laps. Anyones last trip to the local establishment completed at exactly the same average speed? No.

Then there's the totally unfair - Cause temperature and barometric pressure cannot be predicted. Huh?! - one might say.

Fill your lawn tractor/mower one evening (prior to a "hot one"). See the fuel on the floor at next days end? Quite a bit if the temperature differential was great. Expansion. Impact on calculations? You bet. Approach to race planning - "margin of error". Significant? - you bet. Is fuel consumption same at high temp/low baro as low temp/high baro - not even close.

It's these "little flippin' things" that really make the race game fun/challenging/interesting. - and the very best of all - unpredictable.

Gotta love it.

[Racer Duck]

I remember back in the 60's when the Indy 500 was qualifying and the radio announcer (that's the only "live" coverage we got back then on non-race days) kept mentioning the temperature and the threat of rain and basically gave us a blow by blow of what the weather was doing. we all knew (of course ) that if our favorite driver was lucky enough to get heavy clouds and little or no wind during his run, he'd do good - maybe even the front row!!!

as wingkey1 said, the weather is a big determining factor on how well the engines perform. being able to correctly guess the exact weather for a race means you're miles ahead of the competition.

if you remember the rain shortened Pocono race, they showed a shot of the HMS meteorologist reading their own NWS feed and making predictions about when and where the rain would hit - the fact that they were getting real time predictions while the other teams were relying on local TV, etc. meant the Hendrick teams could make the strategic calls sooner .. the rest, as they say, is history!

[azrael492]

I am still learning all the rules about this sport. Could somebody explain in simple terms what Gordon and Johnson did to take that hard of a penalty?

[LSC9901]

Originally Posted by azrael492

I am still learning all the rules about this sport. Could somebody explain in simple terms what Gordon and Johnson did to take that hard of a penalty?

Sections 12-4-A (actions detrimental to stock car racing); 12-4-Q (car, car parts, components and/or equipment used do not conform to NASCAR rules); 20-2.1E (parts or components of the car not previously approved by NASCAR that have been installed or modified to enhance aerodynamic performance will not be permitted); and 20-2H (fenders may not be cut or altered except for wheel or tire clearance which must be approved by the Series Director) of the 2007 NASCAR rule book.

[Racer Duck]

azrael492,

LSC quoted the rules cited by NASCAR that covers the infraction. what they did was interpret the rules such that wherever the template does not touch the body is a gray area and as such is allowable to "experiment".

NASCAR has a large apparatus called a "template" which is the standard by which they insure that the bodies of the cars are the same. (the cars are only allowed a small fraction of an inch deviation from exactly matching the template.) unfortunately, the template is not solid, but more like a criss-cross of aluminum bars with the shape that the car has to match cut into the bottom of the template - kinda like one of those 3d graphs where the grid lines are the bars and the graph curve is the shape of the template. these bars (grid lines) are about 10-12 inches apart, so there's areas where the template doesn't touch the body; it was in one of these places that the infraction occurred. basically they "re-formed" the fender in such a way as to increase down force on the fender. increased down force means the tires have more traction, so they can go faster without loosing control.

the crew chief is responsible for the car from the time it's first built until the driver gets in the seat and takes it out on the track. when the driver gets out, the crew chief resumes responsibility. tech inspection happens during the crew-chief's "watch", so the crew chief bears the brunt of the penalty when the car fails inspection, though the driver and owner are usually also penalized (it's a team thing.)

I hope my attempt at explaining this along with the rules quoted enable you to get a better grasp on exactly what happened. if not, let us know and we'll try again. the last thing we want around GTG is a fan who has an unanswered question.

[Bob Tanner]

Originally Posted by LSC9901

Sections 12-4-A (actions detrimental to stock car racing); 12-4-Q (car, car parts, components and/or equipment used do not conform to NASCAR rules); 20-2.1E (parts or components of the car not previously approved by NASCAR that have been installed or modified to enhance aerodynamic performance will not be permitted); and 20-2H (fenders may not be cut or altered except for wheel or tire clearance which must be approved by the Series Director) of the 2007 NASCAR rule book.

Steve, if I may...
I believe that the rule you quote is from the "White pages" of the 2007 rule book. The COT has an entire separate section called the "yellow pages."

From what John Darby (Competition Director) said Tuesday in a radio interview, I got the impression that the above rule holds true for the COT with the following addition:

The templates are placed on the car at various points. There is a 1/8" tolerance. The distance between the points where the template meets the car are measured in a straight line and at no point can the body of the car intersect this line. Jeffy's and Jimmy's cars exceeded this line by approximately one inch, according to Darby.

NASCAR claims the first object of the new car is safety (yawn. Where have we heard THAT before?) I believe the main object is to put an end to the body manipulation we see on the current twisted-up car, which basically looks as though it's been dropped from a few feet, before it hits the track.

Darby said, (This is a quote)"In NASCAR's mind there is NO MORE GREY AREA, body-wise, in the COT. There is lot's of room for adjustment; the wing is adjustable from 0 to 16 degrees. The wing tips are fully adjustable, and the splitter has 2 inches of adjustment." I find no fault with that. In my mind, lately "Grey area," and "Innovation" has become synonymous with "Cheating."

[NASCAR Gnome]

Here's my question:

The "Chase" in NASCAR is relatively new and right now, I need help understanding it!

I want to know what happens to the teams that DON'T make the Chase and what are they racing for if the ultimate prize is no longer available? Do they race on the same track as the Chase cars? If so, doesn't that make the larger teams with more cars have an advantage since the non-Chase cars can help the ones in the Chase?

Is there a "consolation" champion award? Do the worst teams end up in Busch or ARCA next year?

Thanks for your help!

[LSC9901]

Originally Posted by NASCAR Gnome

Here's my question:

The "Chase" in NASCAR is relatively new and right now, I need help understanding it!

I want to know what happens to the teams that DON'T make the Chase and what are they racing for if the ultimate prize is no longer available? Do they race on the same track as the Chase cars? If so, doesn't that make the larger teams with more cars have an advantage since the non-Chase cars can help the ones in the Chase?

Is there a "consolation" champion award? Do the worst teams end up in Busch or ARCA next year?

Thanks for your help!

Oh My ... you are so innocent !!!

I'll give you a brief answer and let the historians give you the full story. Although they cannot win the big prize they are still racing for positions 13 and on down to 50 something, depending on how many teams actually earn points. Each position pays a certain amount at the end of the year. There hope is to at the very least end up in the top 35 so that the following year they automatically get into the first 6 races.

There is only one champion and that is it. Thoise who do not fair well do not go to Busch or ARCA unless that is their choice.

There is much about the "Chase & Top 35" I do not like but I'll not go down that road now (again!!!)

[NASCAR Gnome]

Thanks for clearing that up LSC, I know it must be trying for you to have to deal with these topics over and over but I do appreciate it.

[Racer Duck]

Originally Posted by LSC9901

Oh My ... you are so innocent !!!

I'll give you a brief answer and let the historians give you the full story. Although they cannot win the big prize they are still racing for positions 13 and on down to 50 something, depending on how many teams actually earn points. Each position pays a certain amount at the end of the year. There hope is to at the very least end up in the top 35 so that the following year they automatically get into the first 6 races.

There is only one champion and that is it. Thoise who do not fair well do not go to Busch or ARCA unless that is their choice.

There is much about the "Chase & Top 35" I do not like but I'll not go down that road now (again!!!)

LSC, you knew I'd tag a couple more remarks onto your post, didn't you? But I'll leave the history to Bob....

Gnome,
Just in case you don't know, when the Chase starts, the top 12 drivers (those that make the Chase) begin with 5000 points plus 10 points for each win, then are seeded according to that point total with a tiebreaker of their pre-Chase points total.

There's also an extra incentive for the 13th place, first place for those who don't make the Chase: a check for $1M at the awards banquet!

[Pepsi One]

Quick question, The modern Era racord for top tens in a season is.....