[Bassdogs]

Originally Posted by wingkey1

Couple of the more obvious/easy ones are: Temperature of the track, as well as the air temperature, relative humidity, and barometric pressure is pretty much constantly changing during the event - all of which have impacts on multiple elements of performance. The amount and type of rubber on track (and where on the track it is) is in change throughout the event. The track will vary in degree of "clean" with dirt/grit from the surrounding environment, fines from track wear, fluids from the cars.

Since many/most teams near always have made some change to their chassis, engine, etc. since their last visit to the track, some of their own doing and some mandated by the governing body, often what may be more correct would be saying their trying to find (chase) the track with their new set up. These are times when the term (chasing the track) seems misused and a team/driver is simply searching to find the fast(er) way around, or trying to broaden their fast groove(s) and it has more to do with set up and path than it does with changes to the track itself.

I follow u, but given that cup teams have the "best of the best" in terms of crew chiefs, engineers, engine guys, chassis people, shock experts and on and on. Over the last couple of years on more than one occasion Jr was so lost in finding the track, that they turned the whole race into a test session. Other not so dramatic examples with the Biff for example have kept what is considered a good car out of contention because they could never find the track. I don't want to try and over simplify the dynamics of this process, but if [Bob - turn your eyes for a minute] our stick and ball superstars had this much trouble each week catching a pass or throwing a strike, I think most fans would think they are watching the local dirt track in action.

I suspect the answer lies in the fact that the top teams are testing the envelope of performance where every action produces a reaction but not always the one they wanted and several things that mess with a dozen other things in a minute way that ends up confusing the whole process.

[wingkey1]

Originally Posted by Bassdogs

I follow u, but given that cup teams have the "best of the best" in terms of crew chiefs, engineers, engine guys, chassis people, shock experts and on and on. Over the last couple of years on more than one occasion Jr was so lost in finding the track, that they turned the whole race into a test session. Other not so dramatic examples with the Biff for example have kept what is considered a good car out of contention because they could never find the track. I don't want to try and over simplify the dynamics of this process, but if [Bob - turn your eyes for a minute] our stick and ball superstars had this much trouble each week catching a pass or throwing a strike, I think most fans would think they are watching the local dirt track in action.

I suspect the answer lies in the fact that the top teams are testing the envelope of performance where every action produces a reaction but not always the one they wanted and several things that mess with a dozen other things in a minute way that ends up confusing the whole process.

Your suspicions represented in your last paragraph are indeed correct/accurate. Add to that the "non-top" teams who less often find the track and we hear a lot of "chasing the track" talk.

On a couple other inclusions within your post:

Jr was so lost in finding the track - and this was the case in many, many events last and previous years. While they could with fair regularity find a fast groove, they could seldom make the car quick/fast over a wide range of the track surface (multiple grooves or paths if you will). That's all well and good when they were essentially running alone, but when multiple others occupy the single fast groove they needed - not so wonderful results.

---- our stick and ball superstars had this much trouble each week --may I wish you well on your journey into this discussion. Maybe it starts with - were the superstars robotic devices requiring a crew of mechanics that tended to their relative wedge, tracking, etc. needs between innings, tearing off sheet metal and fabricating new surfaces after each collision, slide, whiff, we may approach a level of relativity that would allow a reasonable comparison. But then again, maybe not.

[Racer Duck]

Originally Posted by Bassdogs

I follow u, but given that cup teams have the "best of the best" in terms of crew chiefs, engineers, engine guys, chassis people, shock experts and on and on. Over the last couple of years on more than one occasion Jr was so lost in finding the track, that they turned the whole race into a test session. Other not so dramatic examples with the Biff for example have kept what is considered a good car out of contention because they could never find the track. I don't want to try and over simplify the dynamics of this process, but if [Bob - turn your eyes for a minute] our stick and ball superstars had this much trouble each week catching a pass or throwing a strike, I think most fans would think they are watching the local dirt track in action.

I suspect the answer lies in the fact that the top teams are testing the envelope of performance where every action produces a reaction but not always the one they wanted and several things that mess with a dozen other things in a minute way that ends up confusing the whole process.

I agree with wing's answer, but felt compelled to add to it.

first, you would think cup teams would have the best of the best, but, as in other things in this world, often times the person sitting in a particular seat has gotten there as a one shot wonder, thru nepotism, thru seniority, or they just "bought" their way in. Any one of which will wreak havoc on the team's performance. not wanting this to turn into a bash fest, but continuing in a similar manner, some individuals who have the technical knowhow simply cannot perform under the raceday pressures: they're great back at the shop and during testing, but forget about getting the needed performance during a race.

next, because there are a hundred things in a setup that may influence a particular handling trait, many of which require "major surgery" and thus are not "fixable" during a race, it's not uncommon with teams continually experimenting that a bad combination/setup is used (as so often happens that particular setup may have won the race last year, but sux this year...) when that happens, like a doctor diagnosing a patient's ills, ya gotta go thru the list from most common to most rare, eliminating each before proceeding - not easy to do in a race, especially with the driver, owner, sponsors & fans all demanding improvement.

only the most talented crew chiefs/car engineers are capable of making multiple changes at a time and being able to correctly diagnose the problem. remember, there's two things going on in every race: changing conditions of the "arena" and changes caused by wear in the car, fuel usage, or unseen failures (hole in radiator, brake line leaking, weak battery, spring collapsed, etc..) being able to make adjustments for the changing arena conditions as well as diagnosing the unseen failures and arriving at the proper solution is a talent most do not have. something as small as the driver taking a line half a lane different without the crew chief's knowledge could throw all the diagnosis into the trash can.

finally, people have bad days, some of the best even have bad months! I have the utmost respect for Robbie Loomis, but he had a run during this past season where he just couldn't make anything work. when that happens it's best to back off, take a break, clear the head and refresh the body because continued focus on the failure will only lead you farther and farther down the wrong rabbit trails. 'course that's easy to say .. but imagine Robbie telling Jack he had to go spend a couple days at the beach to clear his head...

[warriormama]

Hopefully someone can help me out. I am part of another forum that has a Nascar Trivia Thread going. I have been googling until my fingers hurt trying to find out "Who had the first ever Nascar Crash"? Anyone know?

[BiscuitMan]

His name was Adam. He slipped on a wet leaf coming out of turn 3.

Seriously, are you wanting to know who crashed first in 1947? That's the year Bill France started organized stock car races. The inaugural NCSCC (NASCAR's original name) event was the Daytona beach-road race in January 1947. Several wrecks occurred. Red Byron was the eventual winner.

This is a photo of a typical wreck in 1947 at tracks across the east coast.

[warriormama]

Yes I am serious.......the exact question is
"Who was the first driver to crash his car in a Nascar Race?

[Lefty Noob]

That is a great trivia question, warriormama.

We've got some real NASCAR historians on here (not me!), so let's see if they can come up with the answer for you.

You might also want to throw up a post about this in the NASCAR Trivia forum.

[BiscuitMan]

OK. Here's a quote from ESPN's SportsNation:

FIRST ''STRICTLY STOCK'' RACE
June 19, 1949 - At Charlotte Speedway, the first-ever NASCAR ''Strictly Stock'' race takes place, and it didn't take long for controversy to occur. Glenn Dunnaway took the checkered flag, but when his car was inspected after the race, it was found that pieces of steel had been welded illegally. Jim Roper was awarded the victory. Lee Petty (Richard's father and 3-time series champion) was the only driver to crash in that first race.

[warriormama]

Thanks so much, I will see if that makes me a winner. We don't win anything, just the chance to post the next question.......

[warriormama]

Thanks for the help, you were right, which makes me right.

[Racer Duck]

Originally Posted by warriormama

Thanks for the help, you were right, which makes me right.

Way to go warriormama!

Hope that means you'll stick around GTG and contribute to our forums too. Like someone said, we have a lot of folks here who are pretty knowledgeable about NASCAR. If ya haven't checked out our NASCAR Trivia forum, ya need to, I know I certainly learned a lot reading thru it.

[Lefty Noob]

Originally Posted by warriormama

Thanks so much, I will see if that makes me a winner. We don't win anything, just the chance to post the next question.......

Well, if it's not too much to ask... whatever question you post, and you also post it here?

[warriormama]

Don't worry I am not going anywhere......

I asked "Who won the first restrictor plate race, at which track, on what date?"

[LSC9901]

Bobby Allison, 1988, Daytona 500

[warriormama]

Wrong....Sorry....


It was Pete Hamilton, driving for Petty Enterprises, at Talladega on August 23, 1970