[Quality88]

Originally Posted by LSC9901

Nice Shot TY. We miss you in the off season but when you slide in and take a shot like that ..... you're good !!!

(grumble, grumble, expletive)

[Lefty Noob]

Originally Posted by Team Yates

Why not, did you just start here?!?

Originally Posted by LSC9901

Nice Shot TY. We miss you in the off season but when you slide in and take a shot like that ..... you're good !!!

Ain't it great how some of our users don't miss a beat during the offseason?

[Quality88]

Originally Posted by Lefty Noob

Ain't it great how some of our users don't miss a beat during the offseason?

You would encourage them

[Lefty Noob]

Originally Posted by Quality88

You would encourage them

What can I say, Q. I'm an enabler.

[Quality88]

Originally Posted by Lefty Noob

What can I say, Q. I'm an enabler.

Dangit... I'm goin to the trailer to hide

[DOF_power]

1] What are the side-skirts made of ?!





2] Are they used to get more ground effect downforce like in F1 (till 1981 when they were banned) ?!

[Racer Duck]

Originally Posted by DOF_power

1] What are the side-skirts made of ?!





2] Are they used to get more ground effect downforce like in F1 (till 1981 when they were banned) ?!

not having been up close and personal with a CON, I'm just guessing. but based on previous experiences:

1. I believe the skirts are made of metal, probably sheet steel, about 24 guage. They have a 1" lip at the bottom that turns inward and provides extra rigidity
2. everything about the body on a Cup car is about aerodynamics. You have probably noticed the rear fenders do not extend as low as the rest of the body - that is on purpose to allow the air under the car to escape. the air under the car comes mostly thru the cooling and brake ducts on the nose. however, there is a minimum ground clearance that must be met by all parts, except the tires, of 4", I believe. That is a static measurement taken without the driver in the car, but at full fluids. This height is checked both before and after the race. Naturally, with such a minimum height, it's very hard to create significant down force with these bodies.

I hope that answers you questions. If not, let me know.

[SpaceCadet]

I have a question about about axles and suspension. I don't know if it pertains to NASCAR, but it does have to do with some open wheel cars. What, in a nut shell if possible, is independant front suspension? Does this pertain mainly to the shock package or is the front end modified greatly in this setup? What is the difference in a split axle vs. a straight axle, other than the obvious? Is there an advantage to running a split axle, including repair cost/time after a crash? Of the three, does the independant front end make the car far more competitive? Is it expensive to maintain? Am I comparing apples to oranges? The reason for my questions is this. The indy front end has been banned at our local track, supposedly because the 4 cars with this setup have an unfair advantage over the other cars. Statistically, this simply isn't true. The majority of the wins have been by a car with a split axle, (which I think may have also been banned, but I'm not sure), but the areo package on this car litteraly puts it and the others with the same package in a whole different category of speed. They fly. I'm trying to understand why a decision which may very well be the cause of this track closing has been made when everyone I've talked to says it makes no sense. I have a hunch I know, but I'll reserve judgement for now.

[Racer Duck]

Originally Posted by SpaceCadet

I have a question about about axles and suspension. I don't know if it pertains to NASCAR, but it does have to do with some open wheel cars. What, in a nut shell if possible, is independant front suspension? Does this pertain mainly to the shock package or is the front end modified greatly in this setup? What is the difference in a split axle vs. a straight axle, other than the obvious? Is there an advantage to running a split axle, including repair cost/time after a crash? Of the three, does the independant front end make the car far more competitive? Is it expensive to maintain? Am I comparing apples to oranges? The reason for my questions is this. The indy front end has been banned at our local track, supposedly because the 4 cars with this setup have an unfair advantage over the other cars. Statistically, this simply isn't true. The majority of the wins have been by a car with a split axle, (which I think may have also been banned, but I'm not sure), but the areo package on this car litteraly puts it and the others with the same package in a whole different category of speed. They fly. I'm trying to understand why a decision which may very well be the cause of this track closing has been made when everyone I've talked to says it makes no sense. I have a hunch I know, but I'll reserve judgement for now.

Gosh Space, I don't know if I have enough virtual paper to answer all your questions, but I can try.

First let's tackle the basics of types of axles, mainly straight vs split. Since I'm pretty sure you aren't a "spring chicken" I'm gonna use older vehicles to illustrate my explanation.

A straight or "solid" axle is one which is rigid from one side of the vehicle to the other. Conversely, a split axle is one that "bends" somewhere in the middle.

Now think of an old pickup truck .. like one of those from the early '50s or before. On their front end they had a straight axle; they had that heavy bar type thing that went from one side to the other, then a spindle on each end secured to the bar with a king pin. The wheel was attached to the spindle via the brake drum which housed the wheel bearings. The king pin allowed the wheels to turn left and right for steering. This front end is common on modern day dragsters and, if you remember the term, was an essential part of the "suicide front end" on many hot rods.

Another version of the straight axle is also called the "live" axle and is what most rear wheel drive cars and pickups currently use in the back.

The whole idea of a straight/solid/live axle is both sides are attached such that when one moves up or down, the other end "tilts" in direct relation to the other.

Early on, racers figured out they could get better steering (handling) if they went to an "independent front suspension" (IFS). they created links called "control arms" which attached to the top and bottom of the frame on pivots (up and down) and had the spindle attached at the other end with ball joints instead of the king pin. The advantage is each wheel can move independently of the other and, to a large extent, is not affected by the other wheel's movement. the manufacturers saw the benefit of such a design and implemented it in their vehicles so now most cars and some trucks that aren't front wheel drive have an IFS. A modified design appeared shortly after wards called the "strut" front end. It is simply replacing the upper control arm with a combination shock absorber / control arm that's mounted vertically rather than horizontally (as the control arms are.) Many foreign cars have this design. And, almost all front drive vehicles use a strut, but with different other components in the front suspension.

Now, as you might imagine it didn't take long for some folks to figure out how to adapt the IFS design to the rear of the car. Since most cars at that time were rear wheel drive and used the "live" axle design, the idea of being able to have the rear wheels act independently was intriguing to racers, especially. The sports cars were the first to adopt this design and by doing so they were able to increase their speed tremendously in the corners. The Corvette was the first American brand, as far as I know, to adopt it. Before long hotrod builders were adapting the 'Vette rear end into their coupes and roadsters. One of it's benefits besides the improved handling was allowing the vehicle to sit lower (and it looked cool!)

The maintenance, from both a labor and a cost point of view, on all these designs are somewhat even, though vary quite a bit in what is considered maintenance. But generally the "independent" is more expensive as it has more moving parts.

Now, concerning your local track rules. I assume the class you're talking about is what's commonly referred to as "Modifieds". The only question I have is whether it's the Oswego Super Mods or the common modifieds.

Be that as it may, the Indy front end is really only a modification of the IFS that allows a smaller "frontal area", which, in turn, decreases wind resistance, which increases speed. If I'm remembering correctly, it uses a design similar to the midget & sprint car design and it's only benefit is decreased frontal area. It also adapts well to cars which suffer in the "available real estate" to mount suspension parts.

So, without seeing the opposing designs, I can only assume the aero advantage provided by the Indy front end is significant enough to give an advantage to those cars which have it. Whether it's negated by something else (as you seem to indicate by your 'statistics' statement) is something I can't comment on without knowing more about both sides of the argument.

Historically, "open" classes have allowed anything until one particular design dominated. Given enough time, everyone adopts the winning design and life goes on. However, sometimes, certain people see the winning design as forcing everyone else into the same box and loosing their individuality. That's what's usually behind certain designs being banned. It may also be there is a higher cost involved with one design than another (like it or not, tracks and sanctioning bodies want to "help" racer's save money .. though they rarely do.)

As far as the shock/spring packages: no advantage one way or the other. the person with the "right setup" will always be faster. (Right means right for that day under the conditions that exist at that time .. change days or times and that "right" setup may not work as well.)

I hope I answered your questions, or at least helped you to understand some of the more technical parts of the argument.

[SpaceCadet]

RD, you are THE man! The big picture up here in the north country is a little clearer now. Thank you!

[lilsexy08]

Hey you all got what you ask for! LOL!

[DOF_power]

Originally Posted by Racer Duck

Early on, racers figured out they could get better steering (handling) if they went to an "independent front suspension" (IFS). they created links called "control arms" which attached to the top and bottom of the frame on pivots (up and down) and had the spindle attached at the other end with ball joints instead of the king pin. The advantage is each wheel can move independently of the other and, to a large extent, is not affected by the other wheel's movement. the manufacturers saw the benefit of such a design and implemented it in their vehicles so now most cars and some trucks that aren't front wheel drive have an IFS. A modified design appeared shortly after wards called the "strut" front end. It is simply replacing the upper control arm with a combination shock absorber / control arm that's mounted vertically rather than horizontally (as the control arms are.) Many foreign cars have this design. And, almost all front drive vehicles use a strut, but with different other components in the front suspension.

Now, as you might imagine it didn't take long for some folks to figure out how to adapt the IFS design to the rear of the car. Since most cars at that time were rear wheel drive and used the "live" axle design, the idea of being able to have the rear wheels act independently was intriguing to racers, especially. The sports cars were the first to adopt this design and by doing so they were able to increase their speed tremendously in the corners. The Corvette was the first American brand, as far as I know, to adopt it. Before long hotrod builders were adapting the 'Vette rear end into their coupes and roadsters. One of it's benefits besides the improved handling was allowing the vehicle to sit lower (and it looked cool!)

Here are some struts Independent Suspensions designs

MacPherson Strut




Double Wishbone





It was actually Formula 2 and Formula 1 Lotus single-seaters designed by Colin Chapman that first camed with independent strut rear suspensions.
The MacPherson type of strut independent suspension used on the rear is also know as a Chapman strut.
The Lotus 12 F2 cars was the first with IRS Chapman strut design. This was in 1957.

The Lotus 18 F1 car was the first with where the rear suspension a double wishbone design. This was in 1960.

[lilsexy08]

Originally Posted by DOF_power

Here are some struts Independent Suspensions designs

MacPherson Strut




Double Wishbone





It was actually Formula 2 and Formula 1 Lotus single-seaters designed by Colin Chapman that first camed with independent strut rear suspensions.
The MacPherson type of strut independent suspension used on the rear is also know as a Chapman strut.
The Lotus 12 F2 cars was the first with IRS Chapman strut design. This was in 1957.

The Lotus 18 F1 car was the first with where the rear suspension a double wishbone design. This was in 1960.

I heard them talk about the Mchphearson strut on Barrett-Jackson last night! LOL!

[Bassdogs]

Can we try a new question?

Each week Teams seem to be forever chasing the track in getting their cars set up properly. I can certainly understand how repaving, resealing, repairing bumps, changing banking and I could go on, how these things would require different setups, but why is the set up so elusive to so many teams when nothing has changed except the temp at a multi race track? I know that some teams unload ready to race, but others all too often seem totally "cornfused".

[wingkey1]

Originally Posted by Bassdogs

Can we try a new question?

Each week Teams seem to be forever chasing the track in getting their cars set up properly. I can certainly understand how repaving, resealing, repairing bumps, changing banking and I could go on, how these things would require different setups, but why is the set up so elusive to so many teams when nothing has changed except the temp at a multi race track? I know that some teams unload ready to race, but others all too often seem totally "cornfused".

Couple of the more obvious/easy ones are: Temperature of the track, as well as the air temperature, relative humidity, and barometric pressure is pretty much constantly changing during the event - all of which have impacts on multiple elements of performance. The amount and type of rubber on track (and where on the track it is) is in change throughout the event. The track will vary in degree of "clean" with dirt/grit from the surrounding environment, fines from track wear, fluids from the cars.

Since many/most teams near always have made some change to their chassis, engine, etc. since their last visit to the track, some of their own doing and some mandated by the governing body, often what may be more correct would be saying their trying to find (chase) the track with their new set up. These are times when the term (chasing the track) seems misused and a team/driver is simply searching to find the fast(er) way around, or trying to broaden their fast groove(s) and it has more to do with set up and path than it does with changes to the track itself.