[wingkey1]

Originally Posted by Racer Duck

wing and thunder,

I hope this has cleared up any confusion I may have generated by previous posts.

Not sure the clearing of confusion here is within the capabilities of known earthly powers. Then again there's the "found" enjoyment of remaining within the proverbial "state of confusion". The only time being there is a frustrating drain is when one is trying to find a way out.

Won't (can't) go on too long on the FWD thing cause we simply have not the dirty hands direct experience (FWD oval racing) that is the only real credibility. Couple quick/and shorts. At least that is the intent.

wing, I think the guys you talked to gave you the strait scoop as it applies to them. what I think is they have some problems they're band-aiding by the adjustments they are making - Question to these folks was just a general overall observed difference since their experience was both RWD and FWD. The reponse we got was not associated with a specific gremlin being chased. They're actually doing reasonably well with their hobby level efforts. Think some of your post actually talks/represents similar to their observations.

the FWD car is "pulled" along by the front tires. which ever way the front tires are pointed it will go that way. the rear tires have nothing to do but follow along and hold the rear of the car off the ground - Then there's the condition that is the high speed turn where it is probably appropriate to borrow from your #2 that recognizes additional forces and compensating adjustments (turning, set up, technique, etc.) - the direction the car will go is mostly determined by which way the front tires are pointed. however they can be overcome by too much loose from the rear tires. And I believe the folks I conveyed info from were speaking around this potential condition when indicating care must be taken to ensure against allowing "too much" dominance of the drive wheels regardless of which end they are on.

Perhaps simply put, in the racing turn - give too much forward driving dominance to the rears with RWD, you get push. Give too much forward driving dominance to the fronts with FWD, you get loose.

with a FWD car having sufficient rear weight helps a car turn because it keeps the driving tires "hooked up". (sound familiar?) - this seems to speak to the response we received. That being - in the FWD competition arena set up consideration had to be given to the real/relatively common potential for the fronts to have more than their relative share (RWD vehicles comparison) of the distributed static weight.

This has been kinda cool. There's a weave of sameness through the posts regarding FWD set ups. The "turn wheels right and apply power" to correct loose (in a left hander of course) does go against initial thoughts established in the days of RWD only.

OK enough. On to other things.

[Bob Tanner]

Originally Posted by Racer Duck

though we are partial to Lefthander chassis, a fellow competitor in San Antonio, also a field tester for Howe, helped us get our car setup right. Tommy Grimes (the Texas Tornado) knew his stuff 'cause the next race we did the best we'd ever done. While at his shop he showed us some developmental stuff on his car that was currently in the test stage. We decided we really liked Howe's upper control arm design and his Y-pipe, muffler and turn down were also at the top of our list. Tommy said whenever we wanted to change over he'd help us get it setup right. Ed Howe's stuff has been around a long time and I don't know anybody that dislikes what he puts out .. though they may prefer a different builder's design. In fact I see "Howe" on 9 out of 10 hubs on Late Models and Super Late Models. they are the standard.

as far as I know Freddie is still in Mooresville. I seem to remember seeing his name on an entry list for a race in Alabama or Tennessee earlier this year and it said he was from Mooresville.

Thanks, Ol' Buddy. That shows you how much I have distanced myself from the pits, to the stands. I haven't really heard Ed's name in a long time and I thought that his Michigan shop was a thing of the past.

Howe is an interesting story. He used to run the Midwest stock car "Outlaw" circuit (the big money races) with Trickle, Blackie Wangerin and Bob Senneker. He was a better-than-average shoe but he realized his fabricating abilities had more future than his driving abilities. I forget where he was from but I know it was up north of Cadillac, MI somewhere.

Ed is about my age and I thought that he was out of the life, but apparently he's probably a gazillionaire now, from what you tell me. Shows how completely out of touch I've become.

Thanks for the info. Next time I see Cale Gale's dad, I bet I'll find he's running Howe stuff, too.

[wardfan]

often times there is mention of a tire going flat by having a valve stem knocked off by rubbing with another car. Why don't they put them inside the tire where they can't get damaged that way? Its not like they have to have it sticking out for easy access like on passenger cars.

[Racer Duck]

First, let me say that this is not something that teams take lightly, but really falls into risk assessment. Even though there are regular instances of valve stems being damaged/broken by contact with another vehicle, it comes down to the cost involved to protect a single vehicle versus the frequency of it happening to the team's vehicle.

I know, I know .. just one instance could be the difference between a win and last place, or even worse, the championship. So let's take a look at some numbers. For an average funded team running in the top 25, there are between 5 and 10 different vehicles that race with that number painted on the side; let's go with 5 chassis. At 4 wheels per chassis, that's 20 wheels. For a Cup team there's at least 5 sets of wheels that are used for tire changes at the track; so add another 20 wheels. And, there's also at least 5 sets of wheels that are used for testing, shop use, show cars, etc.; another 20 wheels. Then there's the carnage factor: the number of wheels that are damaged during each race/practice/test - figure this at 3 per week or about 90 more wheels for the year. So now we have about 150 wheels that circulate thru the shop, track and hauler during an average year for a 5 chassis team. Most teams buy "off the shelf" wheels that come in a basic color (black) with the valve stem hole in a specific location (not optional). In order to move it, the original hole needs to be welded closed and a new hole drilled, then the wheel leak tested. Now, remember this is in addition to labeling the wheels with the car number so Goodyear can track the number of tires sold to each car at the track. That's a significant amount of labor to invest in a 1% chance occurrence. And, for 3 car teams like RCR, JGR and DEI it becomes a full time job just managing wheels for the Cup cars, add to that the Busch and CTS chassis and the numbers become very large very fast.

Now think about how many times you see two cars touch wheels. There's a 50% chance at least one of those wheels was damaged and will not be used again. Same thing with scraping the wall. My estimate of 3 per week will be way low for a team with an aggressive driver or one that likes to run the high groove and a bit heavy for a cautious driver who runs the low groove.

If you as team manager decide to move the valve stem, then you have to consider the "convenience" factor. In other words, where to move it to and how much protection to provide. Moving it towards the center of the rim will provide more protection, but will not prevent it being damaged if another vehicle's tire gets "inside" the wheel. If you decide to move it so it's 100% protected, then your tire changers, tire carriers and tire maintenance personnel have to take special precautions not to damage it during "normal" handling since it'll be partially obstructing one of the "holes" in the wheel center.

That's why most teams don't mess with it. That's why most teams have plain black wheels, not color matched to the car. Mikey's "chrome" wheels are a major investment for his teams 'cause they cost a few dollars more per wheel. What seems like such a little thing becomes a major deal when you have to start dealing with the numbers of wheels that pass thru an average race team's hands during an average year.

It's kind of like lug nuts, ya need lots and lots of them, and they're disposable so don't do any more than ya have to. But there are teams who do move the valve stem. Just not many.

[LSC9901]

To push this a bit further I would ask why doesn't the current manufacturer(s) of these rims just change how they make the rim ?? It's not like I'm gonna go to my local auto parts dealer and buy two of those rims to mount my winter tires on. It seems like it would be a one time change over and then the expense of it would be gone and another degree of safety would be added.

[Racer Duck]

Originally Posted by LSC9901

To push this a bit further I would ask why doesn't the current manufacturer(s) of these rims just change how they make the rim ?? It's not like I'm gonna go to my local auto parts dealer and buy two of those rims to mount my winter tires on. It seems like it would be a one time change over and then the expense of it would be gone and another degree of safety would be added.

First, not all teams buy wheels from the same manufacturer (there are several.) Also, there are other customers who buy these wheels who race in other series.

Second, each manufacturer without a "safe" valve stem location design would have to re-tool (not a trivial task, nor inexpensive.) the cost of the new wheel would be more.

Third, the newly re-designed wheels would have to undergo NASCAR certification (remember, it's a different part number....) as well as certification by the other racing series which spec the current wheel.

(Isn't it amazing how such a simple thing as moving where the valve stem is located on the rim has such far reaching implications?)

[LSC9901]

Originally Posted by Racer Duck

First, not all teams buy wheels from the same manufacturer (there are several.) Also, there are other customers who buy these wheels who race in other series.

Second, each manufacturer without a "safe" valve stem location design would have to re-tool (not a trivial task, nor inexpensive.) the cost of the new wheel would be more.

Third, the newly re-designed wheels would have to undergo NASCAR certification (remember, it's a different part number....) as well as certification by the other racing series which spec the current wheel.

(Isn't it amazing how such a simple thing as moving where the valve stem is located on the rim has such far reaching implications?)

Here is what I find to be somewhat ironic. My little race car () has steel wheels and I'm very confident that the stem, a relatively short one, comes from the backside of the rim. It pokes through a hole from what seems to be the backside ???

[Racer Duck]

Originally Posted by LSC9901

Here is what I find to be somewhat ironic. My little race car () has steel wheels and I'm very confident that the stem, a relatively short one, comes from the backside of the rim. It pokes through a hole from what seems to be the backside ???

OK, when you last had tires put on your little race car, how many other race cars were in line with the same wheels? And did each of them show up with 5-10 sets of wheels on which to mount tires?

How many extra seconds do you think it takes per wheel to 1) remove the old valve stem and 2) manipulate the air hose into position to fill the new tire? Now think about 45-50 cars all needing tires at the same time. Seconds turn into hours...

[LSC9901]

Originally Posted by Racer Duck

OK, when you last had tires put on your little race car, how many other race cars were in line with the same wheels? And did each of them show up with 5-10 sets of wheels on which to mount tires?

How many extra seconds do you think it takes per wheel to 1) remove the old valve stem and 2) manipulate the air hose into position to fill the new tire? Now think about 45-50 cars all needing tires at the same time. Seconds turn into hours...

But, but, but ...... aren't the majority of tires already mounted prior to the race ? I won't argue that it might take some extra time but if you thought your family would be safer even though you had to spend an additional 3 minutes preparing the vehicle wouldn't you feel that it was worth it ??? Let's look at tech inspection now. Much longer, but they do it anyway.

[Racer Duck]

Originally Posted by LSC9901

But, but, but ...... aren't the majority of tires already mounted prior to the race ? I won't argue that it might take some extra time but if you thought your family would be safer even though you had to spend an additional 3 minutes preparing the vehicle wouldn't you feel that it was worth it ??? Let's look at tech inspection now. Much longer, but they do it anyway.

yes, and Goodyear is usually still "open for business" at the mid point in the race. But they've been mounting thousands of tires over the preceeding 3 days and their guys are the best at what they do. still a few extra seconds can mount up into lots and lots of minutes... Goodyear pays the labor, the teams suffer the time delays.

remember it's not my family, nor yours, who are dependent on that race car's safety. and if I were a driver and felt it was important for all the valve stems on the cars I drive to be "safe" from accidents, I'd make sure it was in my contract. but the fact is, most drivers could care less about the valve stems placement, and even fewer are the kind of driver who regularly gets themselves into situations where theirs are in jeopardy: those that do, have taken, or are taking, positive action to eliminate that concern.

bottom line: ROI and risk assessment are the controlling factors. most teams feel the ROI is too little and the risk is also too little. And, we've spent more time discussing the problem and possible solutions and the ramifacations of each than any team does.

[wardfan]

boy, racer duck I'm sure glad I didn't ask why don't they start building the cars with engines in the rear or something. Who would have thought it could be so complicated.

[LSC9901]

Ok ... you win !!!

[thunderfoot]

Getting back to MW and his car having the "chromies". We quit using them because of the tire wanting to slip on the rim. Besides being much more expensive to replace them when damaged. Its easier to beat a painted rim back into shape (minimal damage here mind you) and slap on some paint and go back out to bend them up again. We can get some very colorful metaphores out of a driver when the repaired wheel is too far gone and used anyway. Years ago before radio's and we had hand signals, the middle finger seemed to just pop up every now and then. Always good for a laugh dont ya know.

[simple simon]

this may seem like a stupid question (i know, it wont be my first) but how are points awarded during the chase ?

i was looking at RD's chase points thread and see the 12 chase drivers will start out only 60 points apart .... so, if points are awarded the same as they have been during the rest of the season .... after the first chase race # 12 place driver could possibly move into 1st if he wins and the others have some bad luck ...... seems like 1 dnf in the chase could mean youre screwed

[LSC9901]

Originally Posted by thunderfoot

Getting back to MW and his car having the "chromies". We quit using them because of the tire wanting to slip on the rim. Besides being much more expensive to replace them when damaged. Its easier to beat a painted rim back into shape (minimal damage here mind you) and slap on some paint and go back out to bend them up again. We can get some very colorful metaphores out of a driver when the repaired wheel is too far gone and used anyway. Years ago before radio's and we had hand signals, the middle finger seemed to just pop up every now and then. Always good for a laugh dont ya know.

I'm not sure what they are made of but I believe I had heard at one time that they are NOT chrome rims. They are something that resembles chrome (obviously). The expense was a big issue

Originally Posted by simple simon

this may seem like a stupid question (i know, it wont be my first) but how are points awarded during the chase ?

i was looking at RD's chase points thread and see the 12 chase drivers will start out only 60 points apart .... so, if points are awarded the same as they have been during the rest of the season .... after the first chase race # 12 place driver could possibly move into 1st if he wins and the others have some bad luck ...... seems like 1 dnf in the chase could mean youre screwed

The points are awarded the same way they are now. Only difference is that it is virtually impossible for the 13th place car to over take the 1st place car in points. What would be possible, and Tony proved it last year, is that if 13th and on down could run for the top 12 positions it is possible to be far higher than 13th if they could get into the top 12. I believe Tony could have made it to 4th place (someone correct me if I'm wrong) if they didn't play the chase game.