[simple simon]

Originally Posted by PenelopePitStop

I guess if you know everything about anything, you just might be disappointed. Does that even make sense?

of course it does ...... very simple example but i think it fits ... many have a great love for baseball .. then it came out steroids littered the game .... some of that love went away ... maybe some fans were better off not knowing the whole truth

[PenelopePitStop]

Originally Posted by simple simon

of course it does ...... very simple example but i think it fits ... many have a great love for baseball .. then it came out steroids littered the game .... some of that love went away ... maybe some fans were better off not knowing the whole truth

Good example. Not a big Clemens' fan, even during his time with the Red Sox, but now he's being investigated by the flippin' FBI!

I'm starting to think that ignorance is not such a bad thing!

[jks812]

Originally Posted by PenelopePitStop

Bottom line is that NASCAR can fine these teams all they want. They have more money than Gates. Wallets don't matter when it comes to the Cup. Case in point: Hendrick. Did Johnson, Gordon, or Hendrick suffer last year. Nope. Not at all.

Thats why instead of the money and 100 points and probation, they should take about 200 points and send the whole team ( driver and all) home for the next race, if it's done on purpose. Get caught again take 300 points and send every team the owner has home. That just might get their attention.

[simple simon]

Originally Posted by jks812

Thats why instead of the money and 100 points and probation, they should take about 200 points and send the whole team ( driver and all) home for the next race, if it's done on purpose. Get caught again take 300 points and send every team the owner has home. That just might get their attention.

wow ..... just wow ..... i agree but it looks so damn harsh when it is spelled out like that

sponsors have some of the real power in the sport ..... tell a sponsor their car will not be at the race next week and they will get no TV time at all ... they will bring that driver/crew chief around in a hurry

[PenelopePitStop]

Originally Posted by jks812

Thats why instead of the money and 100 points and probation, they should take about 200 points and send the whole team ( driver and all) home for the next race, if it's done on purpose. Get caught again take 300 points and send every team the owner has home. That just might get their attention.

Ah, yes ... if I were Queen ...

You're absolutely right.

[Bob Tanner]

Originally Posted by PenelopePitStop

Well, I'm glad, I think, to know what I know today about NASCAR thanks mostly to GTG. However, as they say, ignorance is bliss. Now I really know the meaning of that phrase.

I'll always be a fan. I guess if you know everything about anything, you just might be disappointed. Does that even make sense?

I have said in this forum before that I enjoyed NASCAR a lot more than NA__AR because it wasn't as popular and didn't have the wall-to-wall,24-7 coverage. Then we saw the drivers as drivers. Today they're stars and because of media coverage we are made aware not only of their talents but of all their blemishes, too.

There truly can be too much of a good thing...

But I could be very, very wrong...

[CarlFanFromOZ]

Some of you guys seem pretty sure of a supposed advantage, can any of you tell me where the oil can box is located. Nascar is conducting tests to see IF there was an advantage yet many of you have jumped to the conclusion that it was out and out cheating.

So Nascar doesnt know...yet you guys do....lol typical armchair athletes, take a breath and wait for the results of the investigation before you declare someone a cheat.

[jks812]

If it wasn't anything wrong with it being done that way, why did the other teams get penalized for their's being loose?

[Racer Duck]

Originally Posted by CarlFanFromOZ

Some of you guys seem pretty sure of a supposed advantage, can any of you tell me where the oil can box is located. Nascar is conducting tests to see IF there was an advantage yet many of you have jumped to the conclusion that it was out and out cheating.

So Nascar doesnt know...yet you guys do....lol typical armchair athletes, take a breath and wait for the results of the investigation before you declare someone a cheat.

in some people's vocabulary "cheat" is one who breaks rules, accidentally or not. some insert "intentionally" into the definition to more closely define the infraction. at this point, the 99 team cheated by the first definition. it remains to be seen whether they meet the criteria of the second definition.

and it's not whether there is an advantage or not. it's that there have already been teams penalized for the same sort of post race inspection "infraction" though the difference is that the other's "containment box lid" was "loose" while the 99's was "off". either way, it wasn't as it should have been and is an "infraction" according to the rules as stated by NASCAR.

NASCAR now has a problem because they've already set the precedent 2 weeks ago. And the spotlight is focused dead square on them and turned up to full brightness because they let the 99 off on the loose tire infraction and then there's the unpopular penalty against Robby Gordon that's under appeal. any two together would be more attention than they want, but now they have 3 hot potatoes...

If I was a betting duck, I'd bet the NASCAR PR guy is working overtime right now trying to figure out how they can weasel out of this one while the "tech" guys are trying to figure out how someone from Jr.s team/fandom was able to sneak in and take the lid off!

[Racer Duck]

Originally Posted by CarlFanFromOZ

Some of you guys seem pretty sure of a supposed advantage, can any of you tell me where the oil can box is located. Nascar is conducting tests to see IF there was an advantage yet many of you have jumped to the conclusion that it was out and out cheating.

So Nascar doesnt know...yet you guys do....lol typical armchair athletes, take a breath and wait for the results of the investigation before you declare someone a cheat.

fyi: the Oil Tank is customarily located aft of the rear firewall, inside the left frame rail and as low as possible without interfering with the drive line or suspension .. the Containment Box surrounds the Oil Tank and protects it from punctures as well as prevents any leaks from dumping oil onto the track.

I have no idea how it could create an aerodynamic advantage, but then I don't have a wind tunnel to evaluate it either (and last I knew NASCAR doesn't either!)

[CarlFanFromOZ]

Originally Posted by Racer Duck

in some people's vocabulary "cheat" is one who breaks rules, accidentally or not.

That would make every driver in the field a cheat, is speeding in pitlane cheating? its a break of the rules...so it constitutes cheating?

To me cheating is a deliberate act to obtain an unfair advantage not simply a breach of the rules.

I dont understand how on one hand people can so adamently defend Robbie Gordon and so quickly condemn Carl and Roush. I understand there is some with driver bias but it seems so illogical to me. Claims of extra horsepower or more downforce etc are ridiculous. People watch the race on TV and somehow think they know more about it than the officials at the track. Now i dont doubt that sometimes Nascar gets it wrong, nobody is perfect, but to label someone a cheat when they have no evidence or really any knowledge at all specific to the subject is going to far. People read a story on Nascar.com and all of a sudden they know better than the ENGINEERS who manage the inspection pre and post race.

Thanks for the info RacerDuck

[bob101]

People are comparing apples to oranges.

In Robby Gorodon's incident we know for a FACT that the nose on the car must be pre-approved AND have a correct part number.

Do we know for a fact that there is a rule stating that the oil reservoir lid be on at the end of the race? Is there a rule about if it comes loose?

I dunno since we don't have a rulebook.

There are lots of times NASCAR takes a part and/or car back to Charlotte when there was no specific rule but wanted to see what the deal was and later there was either a rule or a clarificaiton to a current rule.

Just because NASCAR in the past has taken your car back to look at doesn't mean there was a direct link to a penalty or rule violation. Remember NASCAR is always behind the curve of these teams.

[bob101]

Originally Posted by Racer Duck

fyi: the Oil Tank is customarily located aft of the rear firewall, inside the left frame rail and as low as possible without interfering with the drive line or suspension .. the Containment Box surrounds the Oil Tank and protects it from punctures as well as prevents any leaks from dumping oil onto the track.

I have no idea how it could create an aerodynamic advantage, but then I don't have a wind tunnel to evaluate it either (and last I knew NASCAR doesn't either!)

NASCAR used to rent time/borrow time on one tho.

I don't think it was an aerodynamic advantage. I am not a NASCAR race car builder. I did used to build engines for drag cars for a while.

If his cap was missing where did it go? Was it loose or was it "gone"? Where it's located you don't simply reach down there in a pit stop and take it off.

Don't forget in the past NASCAR has impounded cars/parts and made rule changes about those parts not just because of cheating but they felt the parts were no doing what they intended them to do or did not meet their requirements.

I have no idea what happened but it's entirely possible as such in the past that NASCAR may mandate new devices/measures to retain the oil lid. For all we know this year was the first year of a new design...we just don't know at this point.

[Quality88]

Originally Posted by CarlFanFromOZ

That would make every driver in the field a cheat, is speeding in pitlane cheating? its a break of the rules...so it constitutes cheating?

To me cheating is a deliberate act to obtain an unfair advantage not simply a breach of the rules.

I dont understand how on one hand people can so adamently defend Robbie Gordon and so quickly condemn Carl and Roush. I understand there is some with driver bias but it seems so illogical to me. Claims of extra horsepower or more downforce etc are ridiculous. People watch the race on TV and somehow think they know more about it than the officials at the track. Now i dont doubt that sometimes Nascar gets it wrong, nobody is perfect, but to label someone a cheat when they have no evidence or really any knowledge at all specific to the subject is going to far. People read a story on Nascar.com and all of a sudden they know better than the ENGINEERS who manage the inspection pre and post race.

Thanks for the info RacerDuck

Easy Oz. There are people on here that have been in racin for many years and know what they are talkin about. So if they make an opinion it's based on experience. As far as knowin more than the officials at the track, well sometimes I feel a chimp could make better calls than the officials at the track. It's pretty apparent with alot of bad calls NA$CAR makes constantly. Carls crew losin the tire and claimin not their fault, and gettin away with it. Doesn't matter if it wasn't their fault. Crew chief is responsible for unneeded personel in the pit box/area. So they should have been penalized. And just to add a little perspective on the more horsepower theory... it's not ridiculous, I've seen it.

[Phils20]

Originally Posted by simple simon

wow ..... just wow ..... i agree but it looks so damn harsh when it is spelled out like that

sponsors have some of the real power in the sport ..... tell a sponsor their car will not be at the race next week and they will get no TV time at all ... they will bring that driver/crew chief around in a hurry

Maybe, but I want the sponsors with less power, not more. They already make the drivers bland enough.

I would hope the teams would do the right thing on thier own, not have pressure by the sponsors.

I don't think Citizens Bank put pressure on the Phillies to straighten out Brett Myers when he got in trouble with the law, and I don't want sponsors having any more input than what color the car is.

Sponsor input in the racing is why this sport is in the box it's in now.