[simple simon]

Circumstance vs Superior Driving

which is more important to a race team ...... every sport will tell you .. 'sometimes it is better to be lucky then good' .... but which matters more

now i know there are many examples of drivers coming from the rear of the field to the lead in just a few short laps ...... which is of course an example of superior driving ...... although we all know, not every driver has that ability and/or equipment

as for circumstance ...... so many things are beyond your control during a race ........ debris on the track that makes you overheat or cut a tire .. or even brings out a caution that slows your run to the front .... a bad pit stop ..... engine trouble ...... a wreck that collects you ...... the list goes on and on

so in the long run of a season ....... is it, or can it be .... better to be lucky then good ............ luck is what it is, luck .... but even a great driver can have things not go their way (a recently example could be when Jr was collected by Casey)

i think for most drivers luck plays more of a part then skill

[BiscuitMan]

Superior drivers can make their own luck. A good example is when a driver finds himself a lap down because of a spin or a mechanical failure, then drives hard to get himself the first car one lap down and a yellow flag happens to appear - - shazam, he's back on the lead lap. If his car is "rocket" fast, he can be competing for the lead within a few laps.

That has actually happen several time before.

[wingkey1]

"Circumstance" as you indicate is seen/read/interpreted as "Luck"

Now with "Luck" often defined as: When/where preparation meets opportunity, it becomes clear the best of times are when a circumstance presents itself (either good or bad) and preparation consistent with the circumstance exists, Oh let's say driving skills at the "Superior" level.

Since over a period of time there will be circumstances, we'd venture that those better prepared, in the long run, will fare better than those who are not.

The above would lead towards questioning a decision framed by the following hypothetical representation: I select as my driver Joe Hasnoskills and rely soley on circumstance (luck) as a means towards success.

Hmmm. Circumstance or readiness as my path forward??

Circumstance.

[WestCoast]

You have to be good to be lucky, drivers with ability cause their own good luck.

* with exceptions to every rule

[Phils20]

I do agree that skill and the right ride can create luck.

Derricks Copes 500 win is an example of that. DC was in second, and got the benefit of Dales bad luck to take the win. They did have to be good enough to be in second to be lucky enough to win!

And Bobby Labontes last win at homestead, same kind of deal.

You don't see many backmarkers getting race win, so in the end I would have to say Superior driving wins out in the end as more important!

[PettyBlue]

Lucky or good.I will take luck when it comes to racing.

[jks812]

I guess alittle luck don't hurt. Having great skills don't matter if you get wrecked. But I think you have to have some good skills to take advantage of the luck.

[PettyBlue]

It takes all my luck to drive to a store without getting killed by some 16 year old or a drunk driver,either/or, both in one.

[Racer Duck]

Many years ago, shortly after the invention of dirt, I secured a brand new Yamaha motorcycle with which to abuse my body. With extreme pressure from the then "better half", I succumbed to enrolling in a "learn to ride" program put on by said motorcycle dealer. The very first rule they taught, and which I still remember and practice to this day, was: "Remember, every one of those jerks on the road are out there to KILL you!" And so, with a few other nuggets of wisdom and a couple wobbly laps around the parking lot I was christened "capable."

What does this have to do with circumstances vs skill? Seems to me it's bores to the essence of the discussion: that of preparedness and attention.

While a skilled driver can certainly escape many obstacles thrown into his/her path, lack of attention and/or preparedness will lessen the chance of success in the aforementioned "escape". Same goes with "taking advantage of opportunities." Both are key to maximizing success on the track (and living on the streets to drive/ride another day.)

A few years later, my brother and I won the big race of the year at our local track. The current (and perennial Champ) ran 2nd, half a lap back. During our celebration in Victory lane, an ardent fan(?) of the Champ came up to my brother and spat out "Yew were just lucky!" My brother, calmly met her angry gaze and quietly said "Yes Ma'am, I was."

So, I believe the successful driver is one which meets opportunity with preparedness. Some call it "LUCK."

It's even better when you have some skill to go along with and back up the luck.

[WestCoast]

Good story RD, being into bikes myself, I remember a LONG time ago when I got my first bike. I didn’t know how to ride and didn’t have a motorcycle licence.
Went to a dealer and bought a Honda 650cc 4 cylinder. Came up with a story that I was going to be out of town, so please drop the bike off in the driveway of my house. I stared at it for the first 3 days and then gradually rode it (stalling a lot) up and down the street.
After about 2 weeks of learning how to ride, I went and got my motorcycle licence.
Big on the Stupid, and HUGE on the lucky to be alive.

[Racer Duck]

Originally Posted by WestCoast

Good story RD, being into bikes myself, I remember a LONG time ago when I got my first bike. I didn’t know how to ride and didn’t have a motorcycle licence.
Went to a dealer and bought a Honda 650cc 4 cylinder. Came up with a story that I was going to be out of town, so please drop the bike off in the driveway of my house. I stared at it for the first 3 days and then gradually rode it (stalling a lot) up and down the street.
After about 2 weeks of learning how to ride, I went and got my motorcycle licence.
Big on the Stupid, and HUGE on the lucky to be alive.

Mine was the 250cc twin street version of the road racer (late '60's vintage.) Never crashed it, but did have some close ones... When I finally did crash, it was on a 360 Endruo riding across a field near a gravel pit. Seems a German Shepherd was strolling by and decided to race me, but didn't like his lane choice so crossed in front of me. I hear a loud "Yipe" as I launched over the handle bars slightly ahead of the bike traversing the Shepherd's rib cage. Don't remember if I yelled or not .. probably because I was trying to figure out how to tuck and roll while in the prone position. The bike survived as did I. Messed up my brand new helmet though. The dog walked away .. very slowly .. and with a noticible limp.

Funny thing about the "learn to ride" classes. The following year after my "graduation", the salesman snookered me into being an instructor.

[WestCoast]

I guess when one talks about bikes, being lucky goes hand in hand.
My only crash happened when riding my current 83 Road King (shovel), in deep truck tire wells on a highway for hours.
Bike spat, telling me I needed gas, so I do a big wiggle getting out of the tire rut, turn into a gas station and loose the front end on gravel, going for a little slide.
My decker’s engine guards took all the punishment with no damage to the bike or me.
It’s amazing how you can get hypnotised by a long and uneventful ride just looking into the horizon on a perfect day.

[BringBackWilkesboro]

Originally Posted by BiscuitMan

Superior drivers can make their own luck. A good example is when a driver finds himself a lap down because of a spin or a mechanical failure, then drives hard to get himself the first car one lap down and a yellow flag happens to appear - - shazam, he's back on the lead lap. If his car is "rocket" fast, he can be competing for the lead within a few laps.

That has actually happen several time before.

Yeah, but that rule is know as the "lucky dog" rule. That luck was made by NASCAR for some reason not known to man, not the driver. When I think about a scenario like that, I think of Bill Elliott making up 3 laps, at Talledega, under green an winning the race. That has to be considered superior driving.

As for the rest of it, I think The King said it best, "you put yourself in position to win and circumstance will decide the rest".

[BiscuitMan]

Originally Posted by BringBackWilkesboro

Yeah, but that rule is know as the "lucky dog" rule. That luck was made by NASCAR for some reason not known to man, not the driver. When I think about a scenario like that, I think of Bill Elliott making up 3 laps, at Talledega, under green an winning the race. That has to be considered superior driving.

As for the rest of it, I think The King said it best, "you put yourself in position to win and circumstance will decide the rest".

You missed my point. You have to be the first car one lap down to be the "lucky dog". If you have to pass 5 or 6 cars before the yellow come out to be the first car one lap down.... that may take superior driving - not luck.

[Bob Tanner]

Originally Posted by simple simon

i think for most drivers luck plays more of a part then skill

To me "Luck" is nothing more than having the inate ability to take advantage of opportunities.

Colour me cynical (ME!!?? CYNICAL??!! Naw!) but I just have very litrtle belief in "Luck."