[rlhdrider]

Locking in the top 35 isn't right anymore! There are quite a few of the go or go homers that out qualify the top 35 on a regular basis. There are too many teams showing up each week that run good but have to go home because they aren't in the top 35. NASCAR is about racin', not advertising! If a big name sponsors car isn't fast enough to race in, they should go home! If there needs to be a lock in, lock in the same number that will lock into the chase, and let the rest of the field race in. Even out the playing field. Boris Said had a better time than quite a few of the "locked in" cars but had to go home. That aint right! If you don't have the time, you shouldn't make the field. Lately there have been over 50 cars showing up leaving 15+ cars trying for 7 spots due to the champions provisional. By only locking in 12 or so, it gives the smaller teams a much better chance of getting in and more than likely a better race!

[bob101]

I don't like the top 35 rule either but I think part of your reasoning is not sound.

You say some of the go or go homers out qualify the top 35....technically true. But top 35 teams are running qualifying in race trim - not qualifying trim.

I see no reason to believe that the likes of Hendrick, Gibbs, etc...won't be on the top of qualifying if they run it in the same trim as the non top 35.

It's just like Micheal Waltrip qualifying this week #2. Do you think if the rest of the teams had to qualify on time he still would have ranked #2? Maybe - maybe not. But we won't know till they run together.

[LSC9901]

Originally Posted by bob101

I don't like the top 35 rule either but I think part of your reasoning is not sound.

You say some of the go or go homers out qualify the top 35....technically true. But top 35 teams are running qualifying in race trim - not qualifying trim.

I see no reason to believe that the likes of Hendrick, Gibbs, etc...won't be on the top of qualifying if they run it in the same trim as the non top 35.

It's just like Micheal Waltrip qualifying this week #2. Do you think if the rest of the teams had to qualify on time he still would have ranked #2? Maybe - maybe not. But we won't know till they run together.

Bob I can't say this for sure but I believe the only time any of them run in race trim is when the cars are impounded. While they are guaranteed a place in the top 35 they still run as fast as possible to gain a higher starting position. Most times when they qualify for the impound races the ones out of the top 35 will qualify as good or better because they are all running in qualifying what they will run in the race. If I'm wrong I apologize for being as such. I'm sure one of our masters of the trade will chime in with corrections.

[Phils20]

Originally Posted by LSC9901

Bob I can't say this for sure but I believe the only time any of them run in race trim is when the cars are impounded. While they are guaranteed a place in the top 35 they still run as fast as possible to gain a higher starting position. Most times when they qualify for the impound races the ones out of the top 35 will qualify as good or better because they are all running in qualifying what they will run in the race. If I'm wrong I apologize for being as such. I'm sure one of our masters of the trade will chime in with corrections.

I think you have that dead on. I don't think I qualify as an expert, but that is my understanding of how they do business. The locked in teams just qual in race trim for impound races, and the unchosen ones will go all out. But when the race starts, the non top 35 are just praying for an early yellow.

[Bassdogs]

You're pretty much correct but you can't use Daytona as an example of qualification practices because of all the mickymouse that goes on to get into the race. With only the front row being locked in with qual speed, I think anyone with a chance at the pole will go all out. At many tracks, even the non-impound races, teams that don't have a realistic shot at the pole will spend their time setting up their car for the race. They will tweak a few things for the qual run, but the basic set up is race trim. Since initial track position is of little importance at many tracks, why worry about starting 10th or 15th rather than 25th or so? Once the race starts, drop back and stay out of trouble for a few laps until things kind of settle out and then make your way to the front. I really think the top 35 rule has thrown a big cold wet blanket on quals. It probably doesn't set well with some of the drivers who's competative nature makes them want to win everytime they go on the track, but a few extra laps working on race set up means more meat on the table. The race pays, quals don't.

[rlhdrider]

Granted, the bib guns- Hendricks, Gibbs, Childress and Rousch will probibly be up front, but that still leaves alot more spots than are open now. Who's to say that by having to get in on time that say maybe Kyle busch, or Ryan Newman spin trying for time. That would open a spot. That's happened in other races, where a locked in deiver spun out but due to being locked in, made the race and a good time went home. It's racin', make 'em race. As far as Daytona, to h*** with last years points, It's a new season, start from scratch! This has all been done to make sponsors happy, didn't work for NAPA for instance, but they're still with Waltrip!
MAKE 'EM RACE!!!!!!!!!!!!

[Bassdogs]

Not sure why this cropped up again. Didn't we pretty much beat this to death a couple of weeks ago? O well! For the record, I don't like the 35 rule either. I understand what Bob has against going back to the provisional rule. If I had to choose, if they are going to stay with the lock in rule, I'd like to see it scaled back to the top 20 which would at least open up a bunch more positions for the "Go or Go home" guys.

[Racer Duck]

not gonna get into the Chosen and it's badness. suffice to say on any given day one car will be faster than another and they will more than likely swap positions the next time they meet.

however, this thread raises a good point. that of "guaranteed starting" spots.

while I see the arguments both ways (I'm against "guarantees"), I can see the benefit of a system where the "Chasers" are guaranteed a starting spot in the first race of the next season (aka, Daytona 500.) After that, it should fall back to "the fastest cars race .. the rest go home."

Of course, I can see where that might complicate a "grey beard's" retirement plans...

Oh, yeah! and qualify the day before or the day of the race, no practice in between .. or drop impound races altogether.

[LSC9901]

Originally Posted by Bassdogs

Not sure why this cropped up again. Didn't we pretty much beat this to death a couple of weeks ago? O well! For the record, I don't like the 35 rule either. I understand what Bob has against going back to the provisional rule. If I had to choose, if they are going to stay with the lock in rule, I'd like to see it scaled back to the top 20 which would at least open up a bunch more positions for the "Go or Go home" guys.

Ahhhh yes ... beat a subject to death !!! You're new here so you must understand that although we all hate the Top 35 rule, along with many other rules, we still feel the need to punish ourselves. If we didn't complain we'd be busy watching "The Price is Right" and the food channel instead of racing.

[PenelopePitStop]

Originally Posted by LSC9901

Ahhhh yes ... beat a subject to death !!! You're new here so you must understand that although we all hate the Top 35 rule, along with many other rules, we still feel the need to punish ourselves. If we didn't complain we'd be busy watching "The Price is Right" and the food channel instead of racing.

Hey! I love The Food Channel!

But seriously, here's something else this forum can teach me.

Race trim vs. qualifying trim?

bob101: I don't like the top 35 rule either but I think part of your reasoning is not sound.

You say some of the go or go homers out qualify the top 35....technically true. But top 35 teams are running qualifying in race trim - not qualifying trim.


I know what "trim" is, but please elaborate on this. Are you saying that the Top 35 qualify with one trim, and the Go-or-go-homers qualify with another?

Moderators: If you think this question is better suited for Ask The Experts, feel free to move.

[Quality88]

Originally Posted by PenelopePitStop

Hey! I love The Food Channel!

But seriously, here's something else this forum can teach me.

Race trim vs. qualifying trim?

bob101: I don't like the top 35 rule either but I think part of your reasoning is not sound.

You say some of the go or go homers out qualify the top 35....technically true. But top 35 teams are running qualifying in race trim - not qualifying trim.


I know what "trim" is, but please elaborate on this. Are you saying that the Top 35 qualify with one trim, and the Go-or-go-homers qualify with another?

Moderators: If you think this question is better suited for Ask The Experts, feel free to move.

What they are say PPS is because the top 35 are locked in, those guys have their cars in "race trim" or in other words, they are in race setup and ready for the dance. The go or go-homers have them in "qualifying trim" which means they are setup to get everythin they can out of 2 laps to make the dance. That's why the go or go-homers alot of times out-qualify the top35 guys.

[PenelopePitStop]

Originally Posted by Quality88

What they are say PPS is because the top 35 are locked in, those guys have their cars in "race trim" or in other words, they are in race setup and ready for the dance. The go or go-homers have them in "qualifying trim" which means they are setup to get everythin they can out of 2 laps to make the dance. That's why the go or go-homers alot of times out-qualify the top35 guys.

I see. Thank you.

[Racer Duck]

Just to elaborate a bit on this without getting all technical

Many times "race trim" will have (allowed) "modifications" that produce the best possible speed (highest top speed, really "on the edge" in cornering, etc.) but would not be race-able.

Examples of "race trim" would be:

• the obvious tape on the nose covering the cooling inlets;
• adjusting the spoiler/wing for maximum top speed (giving up cornering stability);
• turning off/disabling all but essential accessories (cooling fans, alternator, driver's "A/C", etc.);
• running extremely light weight lubricants in the engine/trans/rear end
• and (not so easy with the COT/CON but common in "the old days") adjusting the aero package to give the car minimum frontal area which decreases drag, but looses front end stability.

I guess I did get a little technical, didn't I? Oh well, it was "light" technical

[LSC9901]

Originally Posted by Racer Duck

Just to elaborate a bit on this without getting all technical

Many times "race trim" will have (allowed) "modifications" that produce the best possible speed (highest top speed, really "on the edge" in cornering, etc.) but would not be race-able.

Examples of "race trim" would be:

• the obvious tape on the nose covering the cooling inlets;
• adjusting the spoiler/wing for maximum top speed (giving up cornering stability);
• turning off/disabling all but essential accessories (cooling fans, alternator, driver's "A/C", etc.);
• running extremely light weight lubricants in the engine/trans/rear end
• and (not so easy with the COT/CON but common in "the old days") adjusting the aero package to give the car minimum frontal area which decreases drag, but looses front end stability.

I guess I did get a little technical, didn't I? Oh well, it was "light" technical

Nope ... not to techy but it shows what they will do to try and get a front row seat.

[oncea3fan]

Originally Posted by Racer Duck

Just to elaborate a bit on this without getting all technical

Many times "race trim" will have (allowed) "modifications" that produce the best possible speed (highest top speed, really "on the edge" in cornering, etc.) but would not be race-able.

Examples of "race trim" would be:

• the obvious tape on the nose covering the cooling inlets;
• adjusting the spoiler/wing for maximum top speed (giving up cornering stability);
• turning off/disabling all but essential accessories (cooling fans, alternator, driver's "A/C", etc.);
• running extremely light weight lubricants in the engine/trans/rear end
• and (not so easy with the COT/CON but common in "the old days") adjusting the aero package to give the car minimum frontal area which decreases drag, but looses front end stability.

I guess I did get a little technical, didn't I? Oh well, it was "light" technical

I think you mean "qualifying trim" don't you ??