[PettyBlue]

Things do not look good for open wheel racing after this read, Champ Car Owner Expects Series to End - Examiner.com Champ is all but dead and IRL is not far behind in the U.S. If NASCAR does not get things right with long time fan's they could be looking at the same a few years down the road.Your take?

[Quality88]

PB... so far the brasses NA$CAR haven't paid attention yet. Hopefullu though greed won't kill it.

[PettyBlue]

Originally Posted by Quality88

PB... so far the brasses NA$CAR haven't paid attention yet. Hopefullu though greed won't kill it.

I hope so as well Q.My problem is that I was and still am a fan of open,closed,dirt, etc.racing.Big shot brass can screw up a blacksmith's anvil with a plastic fork if given the chance.

[Bassdogs]

Don't confuse what happened in open wheel Racing to any of the sillyness going on in Nascar. Open wheel owners [Penski to name the big one] decided they wanted to run the show and created Cart. That was the beginning of the end. Add Tony George who has an ego that is bigger than the Indy speedway and it was over. Its just taken 15 years to maybe completely die. When IRL has to pay to have its races televised on ESPN 6, any parallel with Nascar makes no sense, unless HMS, Gibb, Roush and a few others decide to tell the France family heir to pack sand and form their own series. Right now I don't see that happening. The other thing that killed openwheel in America was the influx [watch out Nascar] of foreign drivers and the move away from the oval in favor of road courses. I'd hate to see all the big teams run out and try to sign the JPM's of the world. The only greed I see is with Nascar and what they are willing to sacrifice to get top dollar from marketing and the TV contract. Just my opinion though.

[wingkey1]

Originally Posted by Bassdogs

Don't confuse what happened in open wheel Racing to any of the sillyness going on in Nascar. Open wheel owners [Penski to name the big one] decided they wanted to run the show and created Cart. That was the beginning of the end. Add Tony George who has an ego that is bigger than the Indy speedway and it was over. Its just taken 15 years to maybe completely die. When IRL has to pay to have its races televised on ESPN 6, any parallel with Nascar makes no sense, unless HMS, Gibb, Roush and a few others decide to tell the France family heir to pack sand and form their own series. Right now I don't see that happening. The other thing that killed openwheel in America was the influx [watch out Nascar] of foreign drivers and the move away from the oval in favor of road courses. I'd hate to see all the big teams run out and try to sign the JPM's of the world. The only greed I see is with Nascar and what they are willing to sacrifice to get top dollar from marketing and the TV contract. Just my opinion though.

Two emphasized segments in your post above have been at the top of our list with regards to the death of Indy/Cart/US Open Wheel. In NASCAR we felt the threat of split may come from major track owners perhaps coupled with some number of team owners.

Initially T George seemed at least inclined towards ovals but that has begun to swing. Somehow we think open wheel will survive in some semblance of what is today, then again maybe not. We'll all see pretty soon.

Guess mine here was a fairly pointless post. Sorry.

[DOF_power]

Originally Posted by Bassdogs

Don't confuse what happened in open wheel Racing to any of the sillyness going on in Nascar. Open wheel owners [Penski to name the big one] decided they wanted to run the show and created Cart. That was the beginning of the end. Add Tony George who has an ego that is bigger than the Indy speedway and it was over. Its just taken 15 years to maybe completely die. When IRL has to pay to have its races televised on ESPN 6, any parallel with Nascar makes no sense, unless HMS, Gibb, Roush and a few others decide to tell the France family heir to pack sand and form their own series. Right now I don't see that happening. The other thing that killed openwheel in America was the influx [watch out Nascar] of foreign drivers and the move away from the oval in favor of road courses. I'd hate to see all the big teams run out and try to sign the JPM's of the world. The only greed I see is with Nascar and what they are willing to sacrifice to get top dollar from marketing and the TV contract. Just my opinion though.

I disagree, the conception of CART was Dan Gurney White Paper.
Contrary to popular myths, Penske and Co. (as they would prove later) were not that smart. And Gurney never intended to split from USAC.

Originally Posted by Dan Gurney's White Paper

Over the past 3 or 4 years I've had conversations with almost all of the car owners and team directors. I've had talks with drivers, with sanctioning body directors, with track owners and promoters and big sponsors and fans and other interested parties. Generally there is agreement that something is wrong with our sport -—it is not reaching its full potential by any means, and there is great need for a change!
Early in my discussions I realized that we are so intent upon racing each other,
that we do not stop to look and analyze our situation. In frustration I decided that
things must get worse before we will all wake up. Our sport has the potential to be financially rewarding and healthy from a business standpoint for all participants. Many of the car owners and team directors are excellent and very successful businessman in their own lives outside of racing. We as businessmen should be ashamed of ourselves for being involved in a prestigious sport such as Championship racing with all its potential while it is as weak and disorganized (sick) as it presently is. It is truly strange that with all these 'heavyweights' involved, we still do not have our act together.
...
In all of our discussions, as car owners and team leaders, we have agreed that it is essential that we continue to support USAC as the sanctioning body for Championship racing. The only improvement will be that USAC will work for us and support our cause and our policies as well. It should be clearly understood that the purpose of this organization is to make racing better in an overall way. Not just for the car owners and drivers, but also for the track owners and promoters and the sanctioning body and the sponsors and supporters and last but certainly not least, the racing fans and paying spectators.In the final analysis of course, large crowds of paying spectators are the keys to success for all. Track owners and a sanctioning body who aggressively promote these big events — which by contract will feature the teams and driving stars, will get the crowds…which in turn excites the sponsors and TV networks and the crowd, etc., thereby upgrading the entire sport business. It is my firm belief that rather than cutting the cost of racing which in itself is nearly impossible, it is far more important to make money more readily available by increasing the popularity and prestige of the sport with the general public.
...
Tracks that refuse to put forth the necessary enterprise and promotion in order to meet the minimum purses should not be allowed to hold races. Another alternative is to allow our organization (this idea borrowed from the FOCA) to take over the track on a reasonable lease arrangement and we can do the promotion and the running of the race where we feel it can be successful. Still USAC sanctioned of course. For instance, the German GP at Hockenheim will be promoted by the FICA this year, 1978.
Now, how do we get there from here? As I see it, the first step is to analyze the situation, get together and form the organization. (Let's call it CART or Championship Auto Racing Teams.) Once we agree to the fact that CART is needed then we must outline what we want to do and how we should accomplish it. I believe that the organization can be operated by a staff of three people. One director/negotiator, one secretary and a staff accountant and gopher if needed. He will need an air travel card, a telephone credit card and an expense account. It is rumored that Bernie takes none of this, he only works on a 2% commission of everything that is done through the FOCA.

[DOF_power]

The success of the <insert sponsor here> Cup was done from the top by the sanctioning body. NASCAR was competent and took care to make the Cup grow, while USAC was a truly incompetent sanctioning body who did nothing for the Championship other then let the drivers die and the team owners lose money.
So they tried build/upgrade/develope/improve the series from the bottom by hoping to create a system like in Formula 1 where FOCA (Formula One Constructors Association) lead by Ecclestone have changed the series.

But their failure came from this: “They appointed Bernie Ecclestone as the chief of operations officer and negotiator and they made a solemn pledge to abide by his decisions 100 percent.”
They've never found their supremo (a man like Ecclestone, ) and CART’s team owners never made a vow (let alone acted accordingly) to abide by his decision 100 percent. And when push came to shove, Patrick, Penske, Rick Galles and their ilk inevitably reverted to the law of the sandlot: It’s my football and we play by my rules or we don’t play at all.
Gurney was disgusted.

[simple simon]

i think a BIG point is being missed here ..... it seems as though many here feel as though NASCAR doesnt care about how their sport is seen by longtime fans .... it also seems that you expect NASCAR to care

well ...... i think youre right .... NASCAR doesnt care about where you see their sport headed ..... and why should they ?

<insert audible gasp here>

i submit (yet again) that 75% or better of the most regular posters on the GTG NASCAR Forum have been fans of the series for 25 years or more ..... about 30 years for me ...... and basically nothing will change that ..... so just why is it they are supposed to care about us ?

as much as we complain how the sanctioning body is screwing up the sport we still continue to watch ..... and likely always will

so .... as i have shown here ... my parents wont turn it off ... and i wont turn it off ..... NASCAR doesnt need to change to appease us .... they need to draw in a new younger crowd to replace us ...... we will not live (or have money to spend on the sport) forever ...... they basically have 5-10 years to lock the next generation of fans into supporting their sport and doling out their money to supported the series ..... we are hooked on NASCAR like it is a drug ....... they want to hook our kids and grandkids

so ..... in summary .... many of you are pissed in the direction NASCAR appears to be taking .... yet youre doing nothing about it to change it .... youre still watching and many of you are still spending money on it

just why is it they are supposed to give a rats butt that youre not happy ?

[DOF_power]

Simon you're right in what you're saying, the sport is doomed if it doesn't want to grow and it's doomed if it wants to grow but over-does-it/makes wrong decisions.

But, look at those "foreign ares" in the USA where NASCAR has "problems" like California. It's full of custom shops and there's also SEMA in Nevada.
What they represent is the need/desire/obsession for individuality and gizmos. What is building mind share and some market share too is things like drifting, "underground" racing, X-games and so forth. And their GT-Rs and WRX STIs, EVOs and so on and so forth have twin-turbos, 4-Wheel-Drive, 4-Wheel-Steering, Semi-Active suspensions and so on and so forth.
NASCAR isn't gonna succeed here with its spec cars (witch don't have all that tech), spec tracks, spec personalities and spec PR speeches.
Witch in this regard is also pushing away (some of) the old fans too.

[Bassdogs]

Originally Posted by DOF_power

I disagree, the conception of CART was Dan Gurney White Paper.
Contrary to popular myths, Penske and Co. (as they would prove later) were not that smart. And Gurney never intended to split from USAC.

I stand by my statement. Didn't mean to imply that Penske started Cart, just that he and a few other owners lead the charge and became the spokesman for it. You're correct that it wasn't their intent to split from USAC but they backed themselves into a corner with their threats and when the sanctioning body failed to give in, they walked. Gurney may have written the manafesto, but it was Penske and his henchman who did the dirty deeds.

[DOF_power]

The fact that Penske pulled the split to have a new sanctioning body only follows an all american tradition in this regard. USAC took control from AAA who in itself took control from ACA.
There's no 10 commandments of motorsport witch bans changing the (incompetent) governing body. It's just that they proved just as incompetent and greedy as the previous one. So in this regard the USAC - CART split only bought time as they capitalised on the failure of Can-Am. The american open wheel racing/National-Championship was doomed from 70s without radical changes, and they only postponed things as they proved to be incapable of to think beyond the selfish interests and work for the good of the sport.

[simple simon]

Originally Posted by DOF_power

But, look at those "foreign ares" in the USA where NASCAR has "problems" like California. It's full of custom shops and there's also SEMA in Nevada.

thats exactly why i think NASCAR needs to do all they can to secure sponsorship from these types of places

OCC
West Coast Choppers
and anything like that

if any of those had teams the kids would flock to NASCAR ...... which of course is exactly what the series wants

i think Amp was a step in that direction

honestly no offense to any fans here ....... but just why should NASCAR give a darn about Ward Burton and State Water Heaters ? ..... it does nothing for them ........ stick Travis Pastrana in an OCC sponsored Chevy and it would draw 10 times the fans easy

(really no offense to Ward Burton fans .... just seemed to be a good comparison)

[Quality88]

Originally Posted by simple simon

thats exactly why i think NASCAR needs to do all they can to secure sponsorship from these types of places

OCC
West Coast Choppers
and anything like that

if any of those had teams the kids would flock to NASCAR ...... which of course is exactly what the series wants

i think Amp was a step in that direction

honestly no offense to any fans here ....... but just why should NASCAR give a darn about Ward Burton and State Water Heaters ? ..... it does nothing for them ........ stick Travis Pastrana in an OCC sponsored Chevy and it would draw 10 times the fans easy

(really no offense to Ward Burton fans .... just seemed to be a good comparison)

That's the problem with NA$CAR today Simon.... to many fad fans. When the fad dies down, those fans leave.

[Stoney]

This is the real problem "MONEY" everybody wants it and will do anything to get it. Everybody wants to be on Jr's car but nobody wants to give sponsorship to the 27 with Jacques Villnue? The problem lies deeper within Bruton Smith is a billionaire who has had his eye on control of NASCAR for many years. The France family controls the majority interest for now. But what happens when there is a split? The media has already split it up so what is next a East - West series or a NASCAR North - South series? Then which series will care about the fans? I have said it before NASCAR is treading on dangerous ground and will soon follow other series that succumbed to greed.

[OrionBen]

Originally Posted by Bassdogs

The other thing that killed openwheel in America was the influx [watch out Nascar] of foreign drivers and the move away from the oval in favor of road courses.

That is part of the problem yes CART wanted to go global with race in Japan, Australia, Korea, England, Germany and they needed local driver to do so. But at the same time, US driver has chance of joining open wheel, but they mostly all went to Stock Car. Best example are Jeff Gordon (who was growing to become a Indy 500 champion), Tony Stewart who won the IRL championship early on, Robby Gordon was another one.

Also look at the list of driver in the CART Atlantic and Indy Light and IRL Infinity ProSeries, you will see mostly foreigner, the US youth is (and was) not going open wheel.

I'd hate to see all the big teams run out and try to sign the JPM's of the world. The only greed I see is with Nascar and what they are willing to sacrifice to get top dollar from marketing and the TV contract. Just my opinion though.

Also the European mentality will never work with NASCAR, so the JPM will be few. He was put out of F1 because he didn't has the "F1 Corporate" attitude.
That is why I always doubt (and still doubt) Villeneuve will work in NASCAR. As for Carpentier, Hornish the are more blue collar type, and when you listen to reporter (Speed, ESPN,...) he seems more to be one of the guy.