[OrionBen]

Originally Posted by Stoney

This is the real problem "MONEY" everybody wants it and will do anything to get it. Everybody wants to be on Jr's car but nobody wants to give sponsorship to the 27 with Jacques Villnue?

Is that really the problem of NASCAR or every sport. Everyone wants to be associated with the NY Yankees, Red Sox, Dallas Cowboys, Cleveland Cavalier, any athlete who HAS one a gold medal at the Olympic. But who wants to be associated with the Florida Marlins, Cincinnati's Bengals, Memphis Grizzlies, any Athlete who MAY win a medal at a coming Olympic.

It is exposure they want, I don't blame them.

The problem lies deeper within Bruton Smith is a billionaire who has had his eye on control of NASCAR for many years. The France family controls the majority interest for now. But what happens when there is a split? The media has already split it up so what is next a East - West series or a NASCAR North - South series? Then which series will care about the fans? I have said it before NASCAR is treading on dangerous ground and will soon follow other series that succumbed to greed.

Smith-France feud is similar to George-CART feud. In the CART-IRL, CART had the best team and drivers, but IRL had the Indy 500, THE open-wheel race. Cart tried with the US500 at Michigan, but it was definitaly not the same

In Smith-France, The Frances have both the Series and the Daytona 500, so for now Smith can only cash in by buying more speedway, but he will always be missing the Super Bowl of the series.

[Bob Tanner]

I don't want to go on a rant here, but...

You might want to don your steel-toed sandals here; I might step on a few toes
The thread is entitled "Greed Kills..." "Greed" indicates that someone is getting more than they are entitled to. Exactly who determines how much is too much and how much is one entitled to? That's just to nebulous a term for me to think about.

Secondly, to NA__AR, racing is not about racing; it's about personalities! Racing is secondary and has become a by-produce. People don't go to the track necessarily to see racing; they go to see "Their driver," and to spend money at the "Trinkets & Trash" trailers, buying stuff representing "the personality of "their driver."

This is exactly why NA__AR refuses to publish a openly disseminated book of rules, and refuses to share with the public more than a superficial amount of technical knowledge, such as the results of the dyno tests done after the races. Reason: A less educated public is easier to manage and control than an educated one. It's much easier to direct the race fan's attention to a driver, crew chief and/or owner than it is to have that same public get involved in the interpretation and application of NA__AR's rules and it's technical directives.

If the fans actually knew and even halfway understood NA__AR's rules then they might question some of NA__AR's decisions and their administration of same. THAT would not bode well for NA__AR when they decide to play favourites, would it?

All this probably started around the time DW started his theatrics more than 30 years ago, or when Cale and Bobby duked it out on live TV after the '79 Daytona 500. DW filled the stands with people who absolutely hated his personality and came just to see him get beat. Bobby and Cale's impassioned outburst made people demand more live NASCAR-on-TV and their physical personalities showed NA__AR where the REAL money was.

Stewart wasn't far off, IMNSVHO, when he compared NA__AR to the WWF. Both are personality driven and both know that the personalities put buts in the seats and sell trinkets & trash, not the actual sport itself.

Also, I don't buy that NA__AR has "turned its back on the "Old fan." (Me, for example) It sure feels that way but I don't think that's the case. I think that NA__AR has targeted the new fan and just takes us for granted. They haven't "forgotten" us. They just don't care because most of us don't spend vast quantities of dough on NA__AR stuff. We are looked upon much like the way banks look at the credit card holder who pays his account off each month, with no interest charged. We are just a necessary evil who just doesn't make them any real money.

I also think that NA__AR will, in some small measure, be glad when we old fans become too infirm to change channels and will have to be content with whatever channel the nursing home attendant decides we'll be watching on any given Sunday. Then there will no longer be anyone who cares if NA__AR slips the green weeny to some driver, unless of course, that driver is "their driver."

But, I could be very wrong...

[WestCoast]

^^^great post and how true, that's the beauty of a private business, you can do what ever you want.

Now, just give this some thought, where Toyota goes it's arch rival Honda will follow.
Didn't Nascar race at the Twin Ring Montegi a while back?? or was that Suzuka.
$$$$$$

[Bob Tanner]

Originally Posted by WestCoast

^^^great post and how true, that's the beauty of a private business, you can do what ever you want.

Now, just give this some thought, where Toyota goes it's arch rival Honda will follow.
Didn't Nascar race at the Twin Ring Montegi a while back?? or was that Suzuka.
$$$$$$

I'm betting Honda will be in Cup NLT 2013 or 14.
I believe NA__AR ran Suzuka for three years. I think CART runs/ran Montegi.

[DOF_power]

Great post Bob, and I agree.
Montegi, it was/is IRL, and I belive it's gonna be there the unified series to satisfy Honda.

[Stoney]

Originally Posted by Bob Tanner

I don't want to go on a rant here, but...

You might want to don your steel-toed sandals here; I might step on a few toes
The thread is entitled "Greed Kills..." "Greed" indicates that someone is getting more than they are entitled to. Exactly who determines how much is too much and how much is one entitled to? That's just to nebulous a term for me to think about.

Secondly, to NA__AR, racing is not about racing; it's about personalities! Racing is secondary and has become a by-produce. People don't go to the track necessarily to see racing; they go to see "Their driver," and to spend money at the "Trinkets & Trash" trailers, buying stuff representing "the personality of "their driver."

This is exactly why NA__AR refuses to publish a openly disseminated book of rules, and refuses to share with the public more than a superficial amount of technical knowledge, such as the results of the dyno tests done after the races. Reason: A less educated public is easier to manage and control than an educated one. It's much easier to direct the race fan's attention to a driver, crew chief and/or owner than it is to have that same public get involved in the interpretation and application of NA__AR's rules and it's technical directives.

If the fans actually knew and even halfway understood NA__AR's rules then they might question some of NA__AR's decisions and their administration of same. THAT would not bode well for NA__AR when they decide to play favourites, would it?

All this probably started around the time DW started his theatrics more than 30 years ago, or when Cale and Bobby duked it out on live TV after the '79 Daytona 500. DW filled the stands with people who absolutely hated his personality and came just to see him get beat. Bobby and Cale's impassioned outburst made people demand more live NASCAR-on-TV and their physical personalities showed NA__AR where the REAL money was.

Stewart wasn't far off, IMNSVHO, when he compared NA__AR to the WWF. Both are personality driven and both know that the personalities put buts in the seats and sell trinkets & trash, not the actual sport itself.

Also, I don't buy that NA__AR has "turned its back on the "Old fan." (Me, for example) It sure feels that way but I don't think that's the case. I think that NA__AR has targeted the new fan and just takes us for granted. They haven't "forgotten" us. They just don't care because most of us don't spend vast quantities of dough on NA__AR stuff. We are looked upon much like the way banks look at the credit card holder who pays his account off each month, with no interest charged. We are just a necessary evil who just doesn't make them any real money.

I also think that NA__AR will, in some small measure, be glad when we old fans become too infirm to change channels and will have to be content with whatever channel the nursing home attendant decides we'll be watching on any given Sunday. Then there will no longer be anyone who cares if NA__AR slips the green weeny to some driver, unless of course, that driver is "their driver."

But, I could be very wrong...

I agree with most of your statement but this old fan has changed channels I now watch the NFL on Sundays or take my son outside and play with him. The NASCAR nap is no more. The motorsports world has lost it's luster and it is only a matter of time before these new fans get bored and go away. See I don't buy T-shirts Hats Jackets or diecast cars anymore. I sure don't go to the race tracks anymore and get gouged for parking and pay too much for food and alcohol. I don't stand in long lines to use the restroom and I don't have to wait for hours to get out of a parking lot. You know what I have discovered there is life outside of NASCAR when other fans become aware of this.... NASCAR will be in serious trouble.

[Bob Tanner]

Originally Posted by Stoney

I agree with most of your statement but this old fan has changed channels I now watch the NFL on Sundays or take my son outside and play with him. The NASCAR nap is no more. The motorsports world has lost it's luster and it is only a matter of time before these new fans get bored and go away. See I don't buy T-shirts Hats Jackets or diecast cars anymore. I sure don't go to the race tracks anymore and get gouged for parking and pay too much for food and alcohol. I don't stand in long lines to use the restroom and I don't have to wait for hours to get out of a parking lot. You know what I have discovered there is life outside of NASCAR when other fans become aware of this.... NASCAR will be in serious trouble.

I think NA__AR IS in serious trouble. It just ignores the potential problem

The problem: NA__AR's courting the big money sponsors and team investors, and letting the cost of competing get completely out of hand might be terminal. For example, where will the new Roush's, Childress' Hendrick's and Penske's come from? All of these got involved with racing at lower levels and advanced as the sport advanced. However, NA__AR is doing nothing to cultivate a new crop of owners. In fact, it puts stumbling blocks up for them to dodge (Chosen 35 Rule is a prime example; the absolute need for multi-car teams in order to be competitive on a regular basis, another).

If NA__AR doesn't address this problem pronto, within a decade the entire castle will cave in upon itself.

[simple simon]

Originally Posted by Bob Tanner

I think NA__AR IS in serious trouble. It just ignores the potential problem

that is a very interesting and true twist on the problem Bob .... however, i believe technology and the owners themselves share a large part of the blame

technology is rapidly advancing off the track ... and imo the owners that spend the money have the advantage in a big way

compare today to 30 years ago .... how many owners had private jets 30 years ago ? ........ today all the top owners have them and need them .... you need to get your drivers to all the practice sessions

i remember awhile ago we had a thread about a driving simulator some teams had ..... the top teams ..... as i remember this thing wasnt cheap

my point being .... technology advances and things cost more (jet planes, simulators, etc.) ..... and the top owners spend the money .... in many cases it seems the top owners just out-spend their brethren .... dont know there is anything NASCAR can do about that

NBA analogy if it helps ..... all owners put up the same money to field their teams .... but i spend an extra few million dollars to get my team a bunch of personal trainers, dietitians, etc. ..... money that 60% of the other NBA owners dont have ..... my team would have a decidedly large advantage and it wouldnt be the NBA's fault

[simple simon]

another problem i see that NASCAR doesnt control ...... lack of interest at the local tracks

i think a large part of my becoming such a fan is because of my parents dragging me to the local track for as long as i can remember ...... i remember being there young enough that i would fall asleep in my fathers lap in the grandstand during the main feature

then soon after my father began to drive and i was always in the pits with him

now, i know many people that no longer drive at the local track because they cant afford it

it may not add up to much .... but to a degree i think it hurts the sport where these kids dont spend much time at a track the fandom isnt ingrained in the as it was in me

[WestCoast]

I don’t think it’s as dead ended as that. I have an inclination that the "new" Nascar may be on the right track, this is obviously a soft spot with many, but the days of the "weekend warrior" in the big leagues are a thing of the past.
Although the top 35 rule is somewhat controversial to say the least, I for one don’t mind it either.
The fact that we are watching the COT today is an effort by the "powers to be" to keep things uniform and cut expenses for the teams, also having a cap at a maximum of 4 cars per owner(s) does allow for 10 "super teams" if you want to call them that, currently we only have 4(teams) repeat front runners.
Now, as proved in other sports i.e.: IRL, CART, F1, regardless how many competitors and money invested, it’s always the same 2 or 3 teams that are competitive race after race, year after year, so historically curbing or expanding the competition pool has little effect on the repetitious front-runner outcome.
The feel good story of Daytona was that tiny outfit from Denver that fielded 2 cars in the big race with KW & JN.

Personally, I would be saddened if one of the founders like Petty was forced to close shop, but seriously, didn’t they just open a huge new shop.
If Petty can’t get sponsorship and turn his operation around he needs to get the lead out and hire a New York publicity firm to get the job done or an upstart team from Denver will buy his new premises for 50 cents on the dollar.

[Bob Tanner]

Originally Posted by simple simon

that is a very interesting and true twist on the problem Bob .... however, i believe technology and the owners themselves share a large part of the blame
technology is rapidly advancing off the track ... and imo the owners that spend the money have the advantage in a big way
================================================== ===
NBA analogy if it helps ..... all owners put up the same money to field their teams .... but i spend an extra few million dollars to get my team a bunch of personal trainers, dietitians, etc. ..... money that 60% of the other NBA owners dont have ..... my team would have a decidedly large advantage and it wouldnt be the NBA's fault

I see your point, but may I give an example?

Ten years ago, according to the Official NASCAR Preview and Press Guide, the following owners enbarked on a full season of Cup competition:
Petty Enterprises (2 cars), Joack Roush (5 cars), Brett Bodine, Geoff Bodine, International Sports management, Bill Davis, Chuck Rider, Rick Hendrick (3 cars), Felix Sabates (3 cars) Richard Childress (2 cars) Bill Elliott, Buzz McCall, Gary Bechtel, Larry Hedrick, Morgan-McClure, Nelson Bowers, Robert Yates, Joe Gibbs, Dave Marcis, , Butch Mock, Michael Kranefuss, Doug Bawel, Ricky Rudd, Andy Petree, Richard Jackson,, Harry Melling, Travis Carter, Stavola Brothers, Junie Donleavey, Filbert Martocci, Rogert Penske, Darrel Waltrip and the Wood Brothers.

I count 34 individual owners.

From jayski.com here are today's full time entries:
Michael Waltrip (3 cars), DEI (4 cars), Richard Childress (3 cars), Roger Penske (3 cars), Rick Hendrick (4 cars), Jack Roush (5 cars) Robbie Gordon, GEM (3 cars) Joe Gibbs (3 cars) Wood Brothers, Bill Davis (2 cars) Doug Yates (2 cars) Brad Jenkins, Chip Ganassi (3 cars) Petty (2 cars) BethAnn Morganthal, Haas CNC (2 cars) Barry Visser, Red Bull (2 cars) Hall of Fame

I count 20 owners.

So, in a single decade we have reduced the number of team owners, and therefore the number of opportunities to stay in the Cup circuit and grow, by a full 33%.

Does that sound to you like a good progressive plan for growth to you? Maybe I'm being just cynical old Bob but it looks to me like a plan for success in the short term but disaster in the long term.

But I could be very, very wrong...?

[Stoney]

Of course there is a solution one car per team and only one owner per team. If that happened then the competition level would change drastically. The days of owner/operators are long gone I think that NASCAR has done them in by allowing multicar dynasties to rule the field.

[PettyBlue]

Originally Posted by Stoney

Of course there is a solution one car per team and only one owner per team. If that happened then the competition level would change drastically. The days of owner/operators are long gone I think that NASCAR has done them in by allowing multicar dynasties to rule the field.

I agree but 2 car max teams would be ok with me.

[Bob Tanner]

Originally Posted by Stoney

Of course there is a solution one car per team and only one owner per team. If that happened then the competition level would change drastically. The days of owner/operators are long gone I think that NASCAR has done them in by allowing multicar dynasties to rule the field.

I can not agree more! For this we can thank Rick Hendrick and Bill France Jr for conspiring, in 1987, to allow Hendrick to field a third team.

I agree with Petty Blue, in his reply, that two teams are enough. Remember, from 1958 to 1987 there was an iron clad rule in NASCAR that no owner could have more than two teams. It served NASCAR competition well for twenty-nine years. I would love to see them return to this rule.

[WestCoast]

Originally Posted by Bob Tanner

I agree with Petty Blue, in his reply, that two teams are enough. Remember, from 1958 to 1987 there was an iron clad rule in NASCAR that no owner could have more than two teams. It served NASCAR competition well for twenty-nine years. I would love to see them return to this rule.

It would be interesting to see the winner stats during that time period, as I have a feeling that the consistency of team winning percentage was similar to, if not more predictable than today. (Petty's 200 victories come to mind).

Outside of the fact that teams help each other to win races, especially during restrictor plate races, what is important, which team wins or driver?, as there is 43 different personalities out there with their own fans.