[vincesanity82]

NASCAR didn't repeal the rule that saves a spot in the race for the top 35 cars in the owners points, but it did tweak it a bit. This season, all the cars that are required to qualify on time will take their qualifying runs at the end of the session. Teams have five minutes to take their qualifying run after they're put on the clock, and failing to do so or ask for an extension could cost a team its shot at making the race. "We didn't think that was fair that there was another 30 to 35 cars left to qualify and one team had already missed its opportunity [to qualify]," said Robin Pemberton, vice president of competition, during the media tour's annual stop at the Research and Development Center in Concord, N.C. -- Richmond Times-Dispatch



NASCAR NOTES - Auto Racing - inRich.com

[Bassdogs]

To start this off, I think this is too little but hopefully is won't be too late. We call this sport racing. Racers are raised with the instinct that within the rules of a series that the fastest should be the ones contending for a win. I don't know where the "protected" class came from and I certainly don't understand how it came to include so many [35]. What was wrong with the old provisional rule? Provisionals gave top teams the ability to race on weekends when a qualifying disaster hit. My point is if a team suffers that many qualifying missteps, they really aren't a top team no matter who their sponser is.

[Bassdogs]

To continue my last point, the top 35 rule has allowed several teams to ignore qualifying to spend all practice time preparing their race set up. They know they are in the race, and we all know that at many tracks the starting position is not all that important; so why waste time on qualifying at all. Once the race starts they are in a good position to move up over the teams who struggled to qualify on speed and then had start with a qualifying set up and or little actual race prep. A decent finish is almost assured and their position in the protected class is maintained. WHY?

[Racer Duck]

I don't remember the exact race, but I believe it was a big race like Daytona, Talladega, World 500 or something like that. One of the "big" teams had some problems during practice and qualifying and didn't make the field. Their high dollar sponsor squawked, the owner cried and NASCAR took pity. Don't know where the 35 number came from, though.

[Bassdogs]

Originally Posted by Racer Duck

I don't remember the exact race, but I believe it was a big race like Daytona, Talladega, World 500 or something like that. One of the "big" teams had some problems during practice and qualifying and didn't make the field. Their high dollar sponsor squawked, the owner cried and NASCAR took pity. Don't know where the 35 number came from, though.

I understand the sponsor squawking thing, but didn't the top regulars have a provisional? How did the provisional thing work?

[Racer Duck]

Originally Posted by Bassdogs

I understand the sponsor squawking thing, but didn't the top regulars have a provisional? How did the provisional thing work?

Here's where the old memory cell has gotten overtaxed .. I'm not sure I've got all the facts right, but here goes: the top regulars per se didn't have provisionals, but past champs and past winners did. So, if the race contained 5 past cup champs, they were in, and if there were 5 other drivers who had won this particular race in the past, they were in. It could actually be as many or as few as you can imagine. Then, there was the track/race sponsor provisional: the track or race sponsor (Atlanta or Coca-Cola, for instance) could designate a non-champ, non-winner to receive a provisional also. Many times this person was a big name (AJ Foyt, Johnny Parsons, Bobby Unser, etc.) racer who was the "big draw" for the weekend.

Now, what you have to remember, "back in the day" is wasn't unusual to have as many as 60 cars in a race or as few as 19. 1998 was the first year that all races were limited to 43 cars starting each of the 33 races. (yeah, that's right, 10 years ago!) And in 1992, Bristol, North Wilkesboro and Martinsville had 2 races each, and each had only 32 cars starting both races except Martinsville, it's 2nd race had 31.

[Bassdogs]

Thanks for the info on the old rule. Sounds like tweaking the provisional idea with past winners, champs, and maybe 1 or 2 "get out of jail free" passes for top 35 or 25 or 20 teams would get the job done without creating the roadblock that the current rule creates for the "go or go home" teams.

Even with the tweaks of the past week, the top 35 still can forgo the qualifying thing and just focus on the race set up. I think everyone needs to make a legitimate qual run.

[oncea3fan]

what if they did some type a points for qualifing

maybe 20 for the pole, 10 for a top 10, and 5 for top 20.

that would make qualifying mean something again IDK ???

[LSC9901]

Originally Posted by oncea3fan

what if they did some type a points for qualifing

maybe 20 for the pole, 10 for a top 10, and 5 for top 20.

that would make qualifying mean something again IDK ???

It might encourage them to try harder but since qualifying and racing are two differnet animals I'm not in favor of giving points that may give someone a championship when it isn't actually racing. On many tracks the car that qualifies isn't the same car you race. By that I mean that many changes are made to the car after it qualifies. I say they should all be impounded after qualifying.

[jks812]

Originally Posted by LSC9901

It might encourage them to try harder but since qualifying and racing are two differnet animals I'm not in favor of giving points that may give someone a championship when it isn't actually racing. On many tracks the car that qualifies isn't the same car you race. By that I mean that many changes are made to the car after it qualifies. I say they should all be impounded after qualifying.

I agree 100% with that. I also think they should be too. But you'd still have the same problem as now. The smaller teams set up for qualifying and the top 35 set up in race trim. But if they gave points like oncea3fan said, then they'd also be in qualifying trim too. Therefor if they impounded, they'd be in the same boat come race time as everybody else, having to do changes on pit stop.

[Racer Duck]

problem is when a car is setup for qualifying, it may have different springs and shocks on it than for racing. impounding after qualifying pretty much assures there's minimal changes from qualifying trim to race trim because of the time required to "put the car back" - more than is desirable under green flag conditions (which is why NASCAR came up with the mysterious debris caution...

[Bob Tanner]

Originally Posted by Bassdogs

I understand the sponsor squawking thing, but didn't the top regulars have a provisional? How did the provisional thing work?

The old provisional system and qualifying format went something like this.

Qualifying was a two day affair. Everyone qualified and the top 20 qualifiers, irregardless of where they were in the standings, locked into the top 20 starting spots. The next day those out of the top 20 had the option to stand on their original times or throw them out and re qualify. After those who chose to re qualify finished the fastest 20 (I think it was) qualifiers, both those who stood on their times and those who re qualified, made up starting spots 21 thru 40. The last three were made up of provisionals. These were given to the drivers (not teams) highest in the points who did not qualify in the top 40.

At the start of the season everyone had four (I think) provisionals. After eight races everyone who had made a qualifying attempt in 6 (once more, I think) of the eight races were given four more provisionsls.

That is how the old system worked, to the best of my recollection.

[Bassdogs]

Originally Posted by Bob Tanner

The old provisional system and qualifying format went something like this.

Qualifying was a two day affair. Everyone qualified and the top 20 qualifiers, irregardless of where they were in the standings, locked into the top 20 starting spots. The next day those out of the top 20 had the option to stand on their original times or throw them out and re qualify. After those who chose to re qualify finished the fastest 20 (I think it was) qualifiers, both those who stood on their times and those who re qualified, made up starting spots 21 thru 40. The last three were made up of provisionals. These were given to the drivers (not teams) highest in the points who did not qualify in the top 40.

At the start of the season everyone had four (I think) provisionals. After eight races everyone who had made a qualifying attempt in 6 (once more, I think) of the eight races were given four more provisionsls.

That is how the old system worked, to the best of my recollection.

Not a perfect method of qualifying, but I would contend, a much better one than the "top 35" rule we have now. It allowed more than a reasonable number of screw ups for the teams. Under the current approach, even with the new tweeks, it is more about getting the good pit selection and to a lesser degree to get into the 'Shootout' next Feb.

[Bob Tanner]

Originally Posted by Bassdogs

Not a perfect method of qualifying, but I would contend, a much better one than the "top 35" rule we have now. It allowed more than a reasonable number of screw ups for the teams. Under the current approach, even with the new tweeks, it is more about getting the good pit selection and to a lesser degree to get into the 'Shootout' next Feb.

I disliked the old provisional system with a passion and wished it would be changed. Moral: Be very, very careful what you wish for; you may get it!

Bottom line is that the Chosen Rule is what we've got and NA__AR isn't going to do anything meaningful to change it. It has all the benefits (to certain teams and sponsors) and the problems (blatantly unfair and institutes a type of "caste" system within the teams) of franchising without all the legal technicalities. It is what is is.

The only thing which jumps to my mind is that some one, somewhere, must be putting a lot of pressure on NA__AR/ISC. The public outcry about the Chosen Rule is absolutely deafening and NA__AR's PR squad and even the talk show spin artists just can't shut it up. Yet NA__AR steadfastly stands by the darn thing? If it weren't so sad I'd be impressed.

[LSC9901]

Originally Posted by Bob Tanner

I disliked the old provisional system with a passion and wished it would be changed. Moral: Be very, very careful what you wish for; you may get it!

Bottom line is that the Chosen Rule is what we've got and NA__AR isn't going to do anything meaningful to change it. It has all the benefits (to certain teams and sponsors) and the problems (blatantly unfair and institutes a type of "caste" system within the teams) of franchising without all the legal technicalities. It is what is is.

The only thing which jumps to my mind is that some one, somewhere, must be putting a lot of pressure on NA__AR/ISC. The public outcry about the Chosen Rule is absolutely deafening and NA__AR's PR squad and even the talk show spin artists just can't shut it up. Yet NA__AR steadfastly stands by the darn thing? If it weren't so sad I'd be impressed.

Simply put ... MONEY (sponsors) talks !!! Prove me wrong Brian.