[disco stu]

Hi everyone,

I hope that you're all well.

I was just reading the thread which contains the piece about the proposed Argentinian COT, and was particularly interested to read the section that talked about their constructing the car themselves.

Am I correct in my interpretation that NASCAR issues a specification for a "generic" chassis construction and, thereafter, the marque of the finished vehicle is dictated by the choice of engine?

I hadn't really considered this before....I suppose I assumed that the manufacturers produced the cars and supplied them to the teams (actually, I naively thought that they were actually still based on the actual cars).

Where do the body designs come from?

[Quality88]

Originally Posted by disco stu

Hi everyone,Am I correct in my interpretation that NASCAR issues a specification for a "generic" chassis construction and, thereafter, the marque of the finished vehicle is dictated by the choice of engine?

You are correct

Where do the body designs come from?

NA$CAR has a tech team now that has engineered this car and made a template for all teams to follow.

[Racer Duck]

Actually, the same was true before the COT.

For many years, chassis builders in the US have been building race car chassis that are independent of the body or engine that would eventually be mated with the chassis. This is true not only in the Cup, Busch and CTS series, but also in the lesser "Late Model" series, whether local or touring, that regularly race at local tracks across the country.

The top 3 series in NASCAR require the body to match the engine, but not all series have that requirement.

With the advent of the "ABC" bodies for Late Models in 2004, the only difference between makes is the front and rear bumpers and the "windows" behind the doors (all of these bodies are 2-door models). The ABC bodies conform to a basic template with make specific alterations to the templates to cover the front bumper. More about ABC Bodies can be found here.

NASCAR adopted the same premise for bodies with the COT.


A special note of interest: not all local series require template bodies and even fewer require the "ABC" bodies, as they are called. However, the trend is catching on and, except for original sheet metal classes, most full-bodied classes are moving to this type of rule. This includes the popular race truck series.

[Quality88]

Originally Posted by Racer Duck

Actually, the same was true before the COT.

For many years, chassis builders in the US have been building race car chassis that are independent of the body or engine that would eventually be mated with the chassis. This is true not only in the Cup, Busch and CTS series, but also in the lesser "Late Model" series, whether local or touring, that regularly race at local tracks across the country.

The top 3 series in NASCAR require the body to match the engine, but not all series have that requirement.

With the advent of the "ABC" bodies for Late Models in 2004, the only difference between makes is the front and rear bumpers and the "windows" behind the doors (all of these bodies are 2-door models). The ABC bodies conform to a basic template with make specific alterations to the templates to cover the front bumper. More about ABC Bodies can be found here.

NASCAR adopted the same premise for bodies with the COT.


A special note of interest: not all local series require template bodies and even fewer require the "ABC" bodies, as they are called. However, the trend is catching on and, except for original sheet metal classes, most full-bodied classes are moving to this type of rule. This includes the popular race truck series.

I bow to the wiser, and more informed

[Racer Duck]

Originally Posted by Quality88

I bow to the wiser, and more informed

not wiser, just been there, done that...

[Quality88]

Originally Posted by Racer Duck

not wiser, just been there, done that...

I have some been there done that, some I wish to forget

[disco stu]

Thanks for replying guys.

Do I take it then, that the actual road cars that these racers are named after (Impala, Charger, Fusion etc) look absolutely nothing like what you see on the track? (Except, I guess, for the headlight/grill decals).

Also, do you think that the actual road cars gain any credibility or desirability to potential purchasers (ie. marketing power) whatsoever from being associated with NASCAR these days?

I'm guessing that, in days gone by, this was certainly the case.

[Racer Duck]

Originally Posted by disco stu

Thanks for replying guys.

Do I take it then, that the actual road cars that these racers are named after (Impala, Charger, Fusion etc) look absolutely nothing like what you see on the track? (Except, I guess, for the headlight/grill decals).

Also, do you think that the actual road cars gain any credibility or desirability to potential purchasers (ie. marketing power) whatsoever from being associated with NASCAR these days?

I'm guessing that, in days gone by, this was certainly the case.

To answer your questions:

Yes. Pick your favorite and get a pic from the mfg website, then look at the racecars. (Jayski.com is a good site for NASCAR pics) You'll see the differences right away.

No. Most purchasers don't care a thing about whether their car looks like the racer or visa versa.

Many years ago (30+) the mantra was "Win on Sunday, Sell on Monday", but with the fuel crises and the rise of 4X4 that's gone away. So, now it's much like F1 where the marque on the racer is the only thing in common with the road car.

[DOF_power]

The only real stock cars left are (some) touring (like the WTCC, BTCC) cars and (some) Grand-Touring cars.
Rally cars to a lesser degree also keep closer ties to production models (think WRX STIs, EVOs).

[lilsexy08]

Heck now you can't tell the difference anymore with this COT! LOL!

[Bob Tanner]

Unfortunately Stu, today you do yourself an injustice by thinking of the Cup cars (Cup Lite as well) as Dodge, Chevie, Ford or Toyota.) That Camry is about as much a Toyota as the IRL car powered by a TRD-designed "Toyota" engine, is a Toyota.

It's simply a race car with a mfg. logo on the hood and light decals fore and aft. They could put a John Deere or a Tonka logo on the hood and it'd still be basically the same race car.

I guess that sometime during the banquet, David Spade irked some loyal NA__AR fans by saying, "I took a ride in a NASCAR once." I think he actually made a factually correct statement.

[disco stu]

Are the engines supplied by the manufacturers themselves, or are they produced by independent tuning houses?

I'm guessing the latter to be the case.

In which case, am I correct in assuming that the only actual contribution that the manufacturers make to the series is a financial one? (for marketing purposes).

Bob, when it was actually NASCAR, were the manufacturers involved in a more meaningful way? (ie. car development, technology evolution, talent development etc etc).

[3fanforever]

The day the state of Oklahoma kicked off their NASCAR license tags promotion, they brought out one of Mark Martin's #6 cars to show. I asked the guy who brought it how they could call it a Ford when there's nothing stock about it. He said the only thing considered stock was the trunk lid, which is how they could legally say it's a Ford. But this was 2 or 3 years ago, before the COT came about. I don't know if he was right or not, or if that was true of the old car. Anybody know?

[wingkey1]

Originally Posted by disco stu

Are the engines supplied by the manufacturers themselves, or are they produced by independent tuning houses?

I'm guessing the latter to be the case.

In which case, am I correct in assuming that the only actual contribution that the manufacturers make to the series is a financial one? (for marketing purposes).

Bob, when it was actually NASCAR, were the manufacturers involved in a more meaningful way? (ie. car development, technology evolution, talent development etc etc).

when it was actually NASCAR - What might be interesting would be folks thoughts/opinions/beliefs as to exactly when the last time pure off the showroom floor, no modification and/or additions, vehicles were raced by NASCAR in the top series. Likely we'll find that something like - "after the first 5 - 10 beach races, "stock" no longer existed. Skins or under the hood.

[Racer Duck]

Originally Posted by disco stu

Are the engines supplied by the manufacturers themselves, or are they produced by independent tuning houses?

I'm guessing the latter to be the case.

In which case, am I correct in assuming that the only actual contribution that the manufacturers make to the series is a financial one? (for marketing purposes).

Bob, when it was actually NASCAR, were the manufacturers involved in a more meaningful way? (ie. car development, technology evolution, talent development etc etc).

engines, per se, are not "supplied" by the manufacturers, though many of the engine parts are. for instance, a race team may be working with, say Ford, to develop a better flowing cylinder head. Once they believe they have achieved their goal, they submit the part to NASCAR for approval (it includes the manufacturer's part number.) Once NASCAR approves the head, all Ford teams are allowed to use that head - unmodified. Other parts in the engine may not require NASCAR approval (a valve cover is an example), or may be generic in nature such that they are available for use on any engine: the external oil pump is an example of this type of part.

engines are assembled in "race engine shops", the major ones belonging to certain team owners, like Everham, Yates, Hendrick and Childress. Most Toyota engines are assembled by TRD, though Bill Davis has an engine shop as does Gibbs. There are also a number of independent shops.

The manufacturers do contribute more than money, though. They are required to submit actual models, stylized though they may be, to NASCAR for approval. Once the model is approved, say for instance the Toyota Camry, then templates are made and every Toyota Camry must fit the template to be legal to race. (The COT has changed this as the only body difference between manufacturers are the front and rear bumper covers - which do come from the individual manufacturers.) They also are involved in driver development, and team marketing. The manufacturers spend a lot of money making sure their on-track image is at an acceptable level, because they use that in the marketing of their brand image.

In the old days, a team knew they had it made when the "factory" chose to sponsor them as not every team had that luxury of factory help and money. Today, it's still the same, but to a lesser extent. There are small teams, like Boris Said's team, who do not have "factory" sponsorship, but who have "teamed up" with larger teams who do, many times acquiring their chassis and engines from that larger team (in Boris' case, Roush.)

Still, the goal of every manufacturer involved in NASCAR is the same .. making money. And thought the "SC" may no longer be in NASCAR, they are still required to participate at various levels...