[simple simon]

it has occurred to me lately - NASCAR has become the new IROC Series

the cars have no style anymore, no more individuality .... people talk about cookie cutter tracks .. these are cookie cutter cars ...... they look the same and drive the same ... the only difference is the # and paint job ...... may as well be IROC cars

and how about drivers ..... IROC had the top drivers from the top series around the world ....... and how about that .. now so does NASCAR

[Bob Tanner]

Originally Posted by simple simon

it has occurred to me lately - NASCAR has become the new IROC Series

the cars have no style anymore, no more individuality .... people talk about cookie cutter tracks .. these are cookie cutter cars ...... they look the same and drive the same ... the only difference is the # and paint job ...... may as well be IROC cars

and how about drivers ..... IROC had the top drivers from the top series around the world ....... and how about that .. now so does NASCAR

I think the real "Race of Champions" today is the Rolex 24 Hour Race. Champions from at least four different racing organizations compete each year. And, they don't mess around with the "identical" cars, either.

[DOF_power]

The Race of Cahmpions is this RACE OF CHAMPIONS 2007 - WEMBLEY STADIUM 16 DEC


Drivers from rally, F1/open-wheel series, NASCAR, touring series, GT series, endurance/sportcar series, X-Games and Co. all come togheter to race.

[Bob Tanner]

Originally Posted by DOF_power

The Race of Cahmpions is this RACE OF CHAMPIONS 2007 - WEMBLEY STADIUM 16 DEC


Drivers from rally, F1/open-wheel series, NASCAR, touring series, GT series, endurance/sportcar series, X-Games and Co. all come togheter to race.

I take it that the race will be one-on-one, elimination racing? Interesting concept.

[DOF_power]

The only problem I see with the ROC is that there's no open-wheel/formula type of car in the competition.



IROC on the other hand is , minus the 24h Daytona Rolex, just a NA__AR type of competition but even more spec-ed up with justo ne team. NA__AR won't end up quite like IROC, but pretty close.

[disco stu]

I think the reason why the ROC doesn't feature any true, open wheel "formula" cars is that it was originally devised and initiated by Michelle Mouton....a rally driver!

I am by no means an expert on this event (it's generally greeted with a high level of indifference here in Europe), but for years and years it's revolved mainly around the rallying fraternity from what I can see. For the last number of years it seems to have taken place in The Canary Islands, with little or no TV coverage.

It does raise significant funds for charity however.

This year represents a serious attempt to raise it's profile though.

The venue, for example, could not be more spectacular than the new Wembley Stadium (it's less than 2 years old).

The addition of a certain Mr. M. Schumacher to the field will certainly grab the attention of many who would otherwise just let it pass by, untroubled by their notice.

In case you aren't aware Jimmie Johnson is also taking part (as, I think, is - although I might be wrong about this one - Dario Franchitti).

It's getting live TV coverage on SKY here, I believe. So I'll definitely be checking it out.

[wingkey1]

Originally Posted by simple simon

it has occurred to me lately - NASCAR has become the new IROC Series

the cars have no style anymore, no more individuality .... people talk about cookie cutter tracks .. these are cookie cutter cars ...... they look the same and drive the same ... the only difference is the # and paint job ...... may as well be IROC cars

it has occurred to me lately - NASCAR has become the new IROC Series - increasingly apparent as it becomes the only top series to cling to the "oval superspeedway" as its most predominant venue.

The last other "top series" moving now away from this is IRL. Their initial thoughts around splitting away from what was CART at the time included a desire for a return to an "oval" series. Perhaps not coincidentally IRL's move towards road courses comes shortly after what has felt like a spike in the superspeedway superwrecks.

Ultimately over time the competitors (owners, teams, drivers) figure a way to go faster and faster on all track types. "Disaster imminent" is reached sooner on the superspeedway. Limitations become necessary and are imposed (restrictor plates, body templates, tires, etc.) and eventually competition on the superspeedway becomes stale.

OK enough. Feeling here is more superspeedways is the wrong direction for NASCAR. A move away from them (not very likely in the foreseeable future) may be the single best step towards addressing some of the less favorable aspects of Cup racing today. Do not want it to go to predominantly road course. There's plenty of that already available from the other top series. Stay out of "disaster imminent" speeds with appropriate and competitive ovals. Until then, enjoy the increasing boredom of template cars racing on cloned superspeedway venues.

[DOF_power]

wingkey1 the thing about "disaster imminent" has happened to sportcar/endurance series and F1. That's one of the reason of the demise of Can-Am and for the problems in F1 with overtaking (thru the modifications done to tires, suspensions, aerodynamics and engines to slow the cars from 93 onwards).
Other reasons invoked for the spec-ing of racing beside safety are costs and racertainment (= keeping the field as close as possible with as many overtakings and close photo finishes as possible ).

[wingkey1]

Originally Posted by DOF_power

wingkey1 the thing about "disaster imminent" has happened to sportcar/endurance series and F1. That's one of the reason of the demise of Can-Am and for the problems in F1 with overtaking (thru the modifications done to tires, suspensions, aerodynamics and engines to slow the cars from 93 onwards).
Other reasons invoked for the spec-ing of racing beside safety are costs and racertainment (= keeping the field as close as possible with as many overtakings and close photo finishes as possible ).

DOF - cannot speak with any familiarity/knowledge around sportcar/endurance but will venture into F1 a bit since we have enjoyed its show over the past several years. F1 is likely the absolute technical showcase of motorsports today. The vehicles are marvels of the application of engineering and human control (driver) in motorsports. They definitely came to overcome the challenges of the courses on the series. Speeds were getting truly wild and we wondered when/if some form of limits would come. Pretty much was inevitable.

Here comes pure opinion - humankind/ingenuity overcomes the challenges of venues (racetracks/courses) over time to the point where the venues cannot be utilized in a safe and prudent manner. For any number of reasons changes to venues are undesireable (cost, tradition, nostalgia, stupidity, et al). The tendency has been towards - limit vehicle performance - rather than make subtle changes to the venues. Eventually ingenuity is stiffled via spec upon spec upon spec associated with the vehicles. Boring stuff happens. Be better (opinion now remember) were venues changeable, perhaps not unlike in comparison to moving the hole on the greens of a golf course, via ovals within ovals, variable yellow lines, etc.

I know, we've entered the dreamworld impossible. Sorry.

[DOF_power]

wingkey1
I disagree with this part:

"They definitely came to overcome the challenges of the courses on the series."

The teams have overcomed the restriction to reduce downforce and shaved of a little drag, imposed in 94 with the 2 deaths and 14 injuries of Imola, but the price was a disaster. We have problems when it comes to overtaking for whatever reasons. That's why the overtaking group was created.
And the FIA 2011 F1 propositions includes a combined AWD + TC + ABS + ESC system to kick in and slow the cars in the corners, regardless of what the drivers may do. And I find that absurd.

NASCAR suffers from the same problems, controlling speeds/performance and costs, but the COT is just the wrong answer.
And Mosley wanted a F1 COT too, but the teams opposed a spec chassis, and 2011 propositions includes a lot of spec parts.
And then comes the part about the drivers. There's this populist aspect about spec series, for the sakes of the audiences/ratings, so that their drivers are suposebly guaranteed championship fighting cars.

If motorsport was just about the drivers, as some would want it, it would be called driversport.
Motorsport, for me at least, is the whole package, not just the drivers, but also the teams, their hard work/sweat, their creativity, the frustration, the triumphs, the unsung heroes, the cars. I feel sorry if a top driver isn't in a top car, I really do, but it doesn't mean I'll stop watching, as motorsport comes with the bad and ugly.



One has to wonder, just how many more spec series do we need in the name of safety, costs, "entertainment", giving driver's an equal shot ?!

[wingkey1]

Originally Posted by DOF_power

wingkey1
I disagree with this part:
The teams have overcomed the restriction to reduce downforce and shaved of a little drag, imposed in 94 with the 2 deaths and 14 injuries of Imola, but the price was a disaster. We have problems when it comes to overtaking for whatever reasons. That's why the overtaking group was created.
And the FIA 2011 F1 propositions includes a combined AWD + TC + ABS + ESC system to kick in and slow the cars in the corners, regardless of what the drivers may do. And I find that absurd.

NASCAR suffers from the same problems, controlling speeds/performance and costs, but the COT is just the wrong answer.
And Mosley wanted a F1 COT too, but the teams opposed a spec chassis, and 2011 propositions includes a lot of spec parts.
And then comes the part about the drivers. There's this populist aspect about spec series, for the sakes of the audiences/ratings, so that their drivers are suposebly guaranteed championship fighting cars.

If motorsport was just about the drivers, as some would want it, it would be called driversport.
Motorsport, for me at least, is the whole package, not just the drivers, but also the teams, their hard work/sweat, their creativity, the frustration, the triumphs, the unsung heroes, the cars. I feel sorry if a top driver isn't in a top car, I really do, but it doesn't mean I'll stop watching, as motorsport comes with the bad and ugly.



One has to wonder, just how many more spec series do we need in the name of safety, costs, "entertainment", giving driver's an equal shot ?!

"The teams have overcomed the restriction to reduce downforce" - Actually it appears we agree, it is just the poor way I worded it made it seem not so. Was trying to say, as you did in the above, that the teams over time overcome restrictions/rules/templates targeted at reducing speeds. Pretty much seems the natural progression in near every one of the top series where the very best talents in all associated disciplines are applied to "going faster". The answer? - All are still searching. Kinda like the X-Files - the answers out there.

When speed increases move competition in to the "unsafe" zone, there will be, and should be changes made to re-enter the "safe" zone. Sometimes it is improvements to "safety" equipment, but sometimes these are already at their maximum capability with existing technologies and materials.

The answers (plural because more change over time is inevitable) will revolve through manipulations of vehicle components, safety devices, and venue configurations. Not a whole lot more that can be played with we suppose.

The automated reduction / traction / directional system you suggest is being considered "feels" wrong and leaves one with more questions regarding its implementation than it does provide answers.

[simple simon]

this thread seems to have gotten a little out of control and away from what i originally meant

NASCAR = IROC

by that i mean in IROC the cars were identical ..... seems to me with the COT that NASCAR is now the same way

in IROC they had top drivers from different series ........ now with Montoya and the other top open wheel drivers NASCAR is similar in that regard

[wingkey1]

Originally Posted by simple simon

this thread seems to have gotten a little out of control and away from what i originally meant

NASCAR = IROC

by that i mean in IROC the cars were identical ..... seems to me with the COT that NASCAR is now the same way

in IROC they had top drivers from different series ........ now with Montoya and the other top open wheel drivers NASCAR is similar in that regard

Actually it appeared to be on the way back (to the initial). After an immediate jump away to Wembley Stadium and Rolex 24, that is.

For so long as "identically prepared" does not enter the picture, there will be significant difference between COT racing and IROC racing. "Identically prepared" eliminates teams, multiple engine sources, multiple manufacturer interest, multiple chassis builders (and there's a lot of play space here), shock tuning, spring matching, all driver specific vehicles or adjustment to same before and during the event, caster play, camber play, toe play, tire pressure, stagger, moving part lubrication coating, header wrapping (or similar engine temperature control) etc., etc., etc. The list is near flippin' endless. They are not even close.

Had to add - "skin" tuning and weight placement. For clarification - the 18 driver is not doing "skin tuning", he's just overweight, which by the way severly limits his teams ability to do tactical weight placement. So maybe some "skin tuning" would be a good strategic move for them.

Skin tuning - remember when the 48 met the "touch points" of the template but had variations between the touch points that got everybodys shorts in a knot? Brilliant stuff. Brilliant. Made NASCAR "get clear" that "straight line" between the "touch points" was more than simply implied. Ever notice (particularly the hoods) warping and fluttering with speed? Think other skin elements ain't? Think the warping and fluttering is being allowed to become a competitive disadvantage?

[DOF_power]

Well, thanks, that makes me feel a little better.
But this doesn't changes the fact that they're all looking the same, and nothing like the production cars who's names they carry.

[DOF_power]

Originally Posted by wingkey1

Skin tuning - remember when the 48 met the "touch points" of the template but had variations between the touch points that got everybodys shorts in a knot? Brilliant stuff. Brilliant. Made NASCAR "get clear" that "straight line" between the "touch points" was more than simply implied. Ever notice (particularly the hoods) warping and fluttering with speed? Think other skin elements ain't? Think the warping and fluttering is being allowed to become a competitive disadvantage?

Hmmnnn thins kinda of sounds to me like custom elastic-deformable structures, movable aero, possible crude mass dampers systems.
Doesn't NASCAR have tight regulations regarding this like the FIA ?!