[disco stu]

Montoya, Villeneuve, Hornish, Franchitti, Carpentier.......

....and there are probably more (Andretti, I'm guessing....and would I be correct in thinking that Robbie Gordon used to be in CART?).


Is it usual that so many open-wheel racers move across to NASCAR? Or is it just a coincidental thing that all of these guys decided to make the move at around the same time?

Also, do many (or, any) NASCAR guys ever go in the opposite direction?

It occurs to me that - notwithstanding the fact that stock car racing is a completely different discipline to single seaters - the sheer workload involved in NASCAR would be a bit of a culture shock to the F1/indy/champ car guys.

They all kind of do a 16/17/18 race season, whereas the NASCAR guys are racing pretty much every weekend (am I correct in guestimating approx 36 races in the season?)

[SpaceCadet]

There have been a number of TV commentator's who have pointed out that NASCAR's schedule is quite grueling. I haven't heard any comments from the driver's transferring from F1, but I'd be interested to know what they thought. And I can't think of any drivers who have gone from NASCAR to F1, but both Tony Stewart and Jeff Gordon have quite a bit of open wheel experience. Tony ran the Indy 500 a few years back. I can't remember the year, but it was the same year a friend of ours from our local track, (Joe Gosek) also ran the 500. He beat Tony by two positions, I believe. But there are quite a few NASCAR drivers who came from the lower divisions of open wheel racing. Just my personal opinion, but I think open wheel experience makes a better driver. Helps to have dirt experience, too. I think the open wheeler's currently racing in NASCAR, namely the ones you mentioned, are doing a pretty decent job.

[Bob Tanner]

Originally Posted by disco stu

Montoya, Villeneuve, Hornish, Franchitti, Carpentier.......

....and there are probably more (Andretti, I'm guessing....and would I be correct in thinking that Robbie Gordon used to be in CART?).


Is it usual that so many open-wheel racers move across to NASCAR? Or is it just a coincidental thing that all of these guys decided to make the move at around the same time?

Also, do ant NASCAR guys ever go i the opposite direction?

It occurs to me that - notwithstanding the fact that stock car racing is a completely different discipline to single seaters - the sheer workload involved in NASCAR would be a bit of a culture shock to the F1/indy/champ car guys.

They all kind of do a 16/17/18 race season, whereas the NASCAR guys are racing pretty much every weekend (am I correct in guestimating approx 36 races in the season?)

It's happened , on a part time basis at least, since oh... around 1949.

Dick and Jim Rathmann, of AAA and USAC/Indy 500 fame, both drove many races in NASCAR, ditto Jim Hurtibise, Parnelli Jones, Roger Ward, to name just a few. Open wheel drivers have won NASCAR races (Al Keller, Mario Andretti, and A.J. Foyt. Dick Rathmann has 13 wins!).

Jacque Villenueve isn't even the first F1 champ to run NASCAR. Geoff "Jack" Brabham(QBE) and Jimmy Clark both drove in single races. (Jimmy's car was handled in the pits at Indy by the Wood Brothers' NASCAR pit crew)

Like Tony and Robbie, both Kenny Schrader and Tim Richmond both drove champ (Indy) cars before they drove in NASCAR.

Going the other way, Cale Yarborough, LeRoy Yarbrough, plus Bobby and Donnie Allison all have driven full seasons in Indy cars.

I hope all this sheds some light on your question.

[DOF_power]

Well there are several things to consider.

Retirees and/or multi-purpose (including F1) drivers from past times went to what ever was the big/it thing in USA racing.
Trans-Am, Can-AM, CART-Indycar, IMSA GTP were once the series to go and now it's NASCAR.

There were multi-purpose drivers in the past like AJ Foyt, Mario Andretti, Dan Gurney, Jim Clark who were either fully engaged in stock car racing or at least gave it a shot when they had the time.
Andretti drove and won in NASCAR the Daytona 500 before going to F1, while AJ Foyt drove stock cars before winning the 24h of Le Mans (not just open wheel racing, thus showcasing Foyt's talent and skills; why he never made it to F1 is beyond me).

Even more, the NASCAR Ford Galaxy was brought to Europe, were it also achieved succes in touring championships (similar to Trans-Am or the NASCAR road course racing).
The Galaxy was quite popular with F1 star drivers like Jim Clark, Dan Gurney, Jack Brabham, Graham Hill.


Another thing to consider why there are open wheel drivers in NASCAR is the loss of credibility and importance of american open wheel racing.
In the past, a top driver racing in the now deceassed Formula 5000 and/or USAC/CART-Indycar would have comed into the attention of men like Enzo Ferrari, Colin Chapman or Frank Williams. And that meant, if they played their cards right, the ticket to Formula 1. But now F5000 is dead and nor CCWC not IRL have any credibility. So going to Europe to race in GP2 is the only ticket to F1. But they can't afford this, meaning they're left to what ever America has to offer, and the big deal right now/place to go is NASCAR.

[Bob Tanner]

Originally Posted by DOF_power

Well there are several things to consider.

Retirees and/or multi-purpose (including F1) drivers from past times went to what ever was the big/it thing in USA racing.
Trans-Am, Can-AM, CART-Indycar, IMSA GTP were once the series to go and now it's NASCAR.

There were multi-purpose drivers in the past like AJ Foyt, Mario Andretti, Dan Gurney, Jim Clark who were either fully engaged in stock car racing or at least gave it a shot when they had the time.
Andretti drove and won in NASCAR the Daytona 500 before going to F1, while AJ Foyt drove stock cars before winning the 24h of Le Mans (not just open wheel racing, thus showcasing Foyt's talent and skills; why he never made it to F1 is beyond me).

Even more, the NASCAR Ford Galaxy was brought to Europe, were it also achieved succes in touring championships (similar to Trans-Am or the NASCAR road course racing).
The Galaxy was quite popular with F1 star drivers like Jim Clark, Dan Gurney, Jack Brabham, Graham Hill.


Another thing to consider why there are open wheel drivers in NASCAR is the loss of credibility and importance of american open wheel racing.
In the past, a top driver racing in the now deceassed Formula 5000 and/or USAC/CART-Indycar would have comed into the attention of men like Enzo Ferrari, Colin Chapman or Frank Williams. And that meant, if they played their cards right, the ticket to Formula 1. But now F5000 is dead and nor CCWC not IRL have any credibility. So going to Europe to race in GP2 is the only ticket to F1. But they can't afford this, meaning they're left to what ever America has to offer, and the big deal right now/place to go is NASCAR.

Bingo!
The there are only two racing Series which draw multitudes of fans, world-wide; F1 and NA__AR. All the rest have their "niche" followers but nothing compared to the two aforementioned Series.

I think of it this way: Big money involvement have made both of these Series a pie with a maximum of dimensions. Opportunity-wise, the F1 pie is about half the size of the NA__AR pie. Everyone knows there are only so many slices which can be taken out of a pie.

It appears that all the world's top drivers, not currently in either of these Series, are now fighting over the slices of each pie, with opportunity to get one of the slices much better with the NA__AR pie.

[PettyBlue]

Originally Posted by Bob Tanner

Bingo!
The there are only two racing Series which draw multitudes of fans, world-wide; F1 and NA__AR. All the rest have their "niche" followers but nothing compared to the two aforementioned Series.

I think of it this way: Big money involvement have made both of these Series a pie with a maximum of dimensions. Opportunity-wise, the F1 pie is about half the size of the NA__AR pie. Everyone knows there are only so many slices which can be taken out of a pie.

It appears that all the world's top drivers, not currently in either of these Series, are now fighting over the slices of each pie, with opportunity to get one of the slices much better with the NA__AR pie.

Bob,you read as if you are a baker.Hey I like that,Bob the Baker,lol.Just having fun.

[Bob Tanner]

Originally Posted by PettyBlue

Bob,you read as if you are a baker.Hey I like that,Bob the Baker,lol.Just having fun.

PB, if you EVER see me around a stove, with cooking utensils in my hands, be afwraid! Be vwery, vwery afwraid!

[disco stu]

Thanks for replying to my post guys.

Wow, I'm glad I joined this forum....you folks really know your stuff!!!

[simple simon]

all good points here ....... but i think you guys have left out one of the biggest reasons $$$$

(of course all this could mean nothing as i have no idea what the drivers make from the teams .... this is all based on track winnings)

this season Montoya has won over $4.6 million ..... he has 1 win and 6 top tens and he is only 21st in NASCAR points

Dario Franchitti has won barely over $3 million ..... he has 4 wins and 16 top tens and is the IRL points leader (actually, now that i check the schedule i see their season is over and has been for about 2 months ..... shows you how popular IRL is, i didnt have a clue)

also keep in mind .... these guys are racing junkies .. they want to be the best of the best (yes i know some would say that is F1) ....... both series race at Michigan ... IRL had 20 drivers post qualifying speeds .. NASCAR had 48 drivers post qualifying speeds ....... my point being there is much more competition to get into a NASCAR race then an IRL race ..... with NASCAR there are always about 7 drivers going home ... with IRL it seems all you have to do is show up and youre in the race .............. in IRL only 7 drivers finished within 30 laps of the lead at Michigan ..... in NASCAR 35 drivers finished within 4 laps of the lead

if you get a top 10 finish in NASCAR you fought all day and you know you earned it ........... if you get a top 10 finish in IRL you may be 55 laps down like Scott Dixon who finished 10th at Michigan

wow .... the more i dig up these comparisons the more i see how pathetic the IRL really is (and i grew up an Indy fan .. Mario Andretti has always been my favorite driver for over 30 years)

[Bob Tanner]

Originally Posted by simple simon

all good points here ....... but i think you guys have left out one of the biggest reasons $$$$

(of course all this could mean nothing as i have no idea what the drivers make from the teams .... this is all based on track winnings)

this season Montoya has won over $4.6 million ..... he has 1 win and 6 top tens and he is only 21st in NASCAR points

Dario Franchitti has won barely over $3 million ..... he has 4 wins and 16 top tens and is the IRL points leader (actually, now that i check the schedule i see their season is over and has been for about 2 months ..... shows you how popular IRL is, i didnt have a clue)

also keep in mind .... these guys are racing junkies .. they want to be the best of the best (yes i know some would say that is F1) ....... both series race at Michigan ... IRL had 20 drivers post qualifying speeds .. NASCAR had 48 drivers post qualifying speeds ....... my point being there is much more competition to get into a NASCAR race then an IRL race ..... with NASCAR there are always about 7 drivers going home ... with IRL it seems all you have to do is show up and youre in the race .............. in IRL only 7 drivers finished within 30 laps of the lead at Michigan ..... in NASCAR 35 drivers finished within 4 laps of the lead

if you get a top 10 finish in NASCAR you fought all day and you know you earned it ........... if you get a top 10 finish in IRL you may be 55 laps down like Scott Dixon who finished 10th at Michigan

wow .... the more i dig up these comparisons the more i see how pathetic the IRL really is (and i grew up an Indy fan .. Mario Andretti has always been my favorite driver for over 30 years)

Extremely good points, Simon. Very extremely! (How's that for redundant bad grammar?)

I'm glad you pointed that fact out. It is certainly true of IRL and CART (or whatever they call it these days).

However, F1 is another animal. (DOF, give us some details on this one, please) From the little I know about it, NA__AR drivers salaries are peanuts compared to the top salaries in F1. Even as far down the totem pole as Toro Roussa is in F1, I believe Franchitti left some money on the table by choosing Ganassi's NA__AR program over Red Bull's F1's seat.

[Racer Duck]

a couple more points about open-wheel vs NASCAR:

• the open-wheel cars are much more expensive (partially due to the extensive telemetrics) than a Cup car
• the open-wheel cars are built to disentigrate upon impact keeping the driver safely encased in the carbon fiber driver's cocooon while NASCAR relies on an extremely rigid frame (roll cage), energy absorbing materials, and state of the art belts, seats and netting.
• the average open-wheel pit crew is larger and less "athletic" than the NASCAR pit crews
• driving a NASCAR Cup car requires more energy to turn the wheel (steering wheels are larger and on average rotate 60-90 degrees per turn), shift gears (4-speed shifter vs paddle shifter) and tolerate the heat (both engine and weather with restricted ventilation)
• open-wheel cars accelerate faster and stop quicker (because they are lighter) and generate more lateral G's on the driver than NASCAR Cup cars.
• finally, in open-wheel competition, team orders are commonplace, not in NASCAR .. yet.

[DOF_power]

Originally Posted by Bob Tanner

Extremely good points, Simon. Very extremely! (How's that for redundant bad grammar?)

I'm glad you pointed that fact out. It is certainly true of IRL and CART (or whatever they call it these days).

However, F1 is another animal. (DOF, give us some details on this one, please) From the little I know about it, NA__AR drivers salaries are peanuts compared to the top salaries in F1. Even as far down the totem pole as Toro Roussa is in F1, I believe Franchitti left some money on the table by choosing Ganassi's NA__AR program over Red Bull's F1's seat.

Well for the salaries it depends on who you're talking about in NASCAR vs. who you're talking about in F1.

Jeff Gordon is acording to Forbes making $24.5 million per year making him the 4 best paid man in motorsport.

In fact as a driver of 4 wheel vehicles curently still in activity (meaning no. 2 Schumacher and no.3 MotoGP's Rossi would be excluded) he's no 2, second only to the 2007 F1 WDC Kimi Raikkonen ($40 million per year).

There are however circumstances.
Alonso was driving for McLaren this year, and they have a policy of not allowing endorsments deals. So "poor" Alonso had to settle with just a miserable 20 million dollar + salary this year.
Now Schumi at his peak could make 40 to 50 millions on endorsments alone (besides his 50 million salary from Ferrari), and there are quite a few spanish and/or latin american companies who would have loved to fill Alonso's pockets thru such banned deals.

As for Hamilton, he's considered the billion dollar man, and if he plays his cards right he's the one who's got the possibility of trumping Tiger Woods.

So in conclusion, NASCAR boys are not being paid peanuts.
And the higher/top paid Cup boys make more then Formula 1's mid-field/backmarkers/rookies, but less when comparing the top vs. the top (Gordon vs. Raikkonen) and the possibilities (Schumacher in the past, Hamilton in the future; meaning 100 million per year + and 650 to 1 billion + at the end of the F1 carrer).

[Bob Tanner]

Originally Posted by DOF_power

Well for the salaries it depends on who you're talking about in NASCAR vs. who you're talking about in F1.

Jeff Gordon is acording to Forbes making $24.5 million per year making him the 4 best paid man in motorsport.

In fact as a driver of 4 wheel vehicles curently still in activity (meaning no. 2 Schumacher and no.3 MotoGP's Rossi would be excluded) he's no 2, second only to the 2007 F1 WDC Kimi Raikkonen ($40 million per year).

There are however circumstances.
Alonso was driving for McLaren this year, and they have a policy of not allowing endorsments deals. So "poor" Alonso had to settle with just a miserable 20 million dollar + salary this year.
Now Schumi at his peak could make 40 to 50 millions on endorsments alone (besides his 50 million salary from Ferrari), and there are quite a few spanish and/or latin american companies who would have loved to fill Alonso's pockets thru such banned deals.

As for Hamilton, he's considered the billion dollar man, and if he plays his cards right he's the one who's got the possibility of trumping Tiger Woods.

So in conclusion, NASCAR boys are not being paid peanuts.
And the higher/top paid Cup boys make more then Formula 1's mid-field/backmarkers/rookies, but less when comparing the top vs. the top (Gordon vs. Raikkonen) and the possibilities (Schumacher in the past, Hamilton in the future; meaning 100 million per year + and 650 to 1 billion + at the end of the F1 carrer).

Thank you, my friend, for the explanation. I thought it was more "across the board" on the salaries but... there I go again, thinking...

I appreciate the insight. Thanks again.

[Racer Duck]

I believe when you count total "take home", Dale Jr. is the highest paid NASCAR driver. His endorsements & souvenirs have been quoted at about $40M, a figure Gordon hasn't yet attained. I believe Jr's salary is about $20M which places him in the rarefied atmosphere of best paid drivers, though considerably short of Michael Schumacher (isn't everybody, though?)

[Bob Tanner]

Originally Posted by Racer Duck

I believe when you count total "take home", Dale Jr. is the highest paid NASCAR driver. His endorsements & souvenirs have been quoted at about $40M, a figure Gordon hasn't yet attained. I believe Jr's salary is about $20M which places him in the rarefied atmosphere of best paid drivers, though considerably short of Michael Schumacher (isn't everybody, though?)

With everything that Hamilton has going for him, I agree with DOF. He'll surpass Michael and be the next Tiger Woods.