[PenelopePitStop]

Originally Posted by PenelopePitStop

I must have missed something ...

Are there accusations of JJ cheating yesterday? I didn't see anything ... not here anyway.

Never mind ... I see the cheating bashing in another Thread.

On that note, and I'm sure I'll be bashed myself for this one, but I'm really fuzzy on what constitutes "cheating". If someone doesn't understand the rules, that's one thing. However, I find that hard to believe. If you don't understand the rules regarding what you can and can't do to the car, then you shouldn't be a crew chief.

I also don't believe that the COT rule book is some mysterious manuscript that is kept secret in the hands of the Gods of the NASCAR sanctioning body.

Now, wasn't it Waltrip's team that messed with the fuel (or something) at the very start of the season, were corrected, then did it again? Now THAT'S cheating. And who was it that futzed with the fender and claimed ignorance to the rules? I think it was Gordon or Johnson, but I don't remember. In the article where the rules that were broken were posted, the rules were pretty clear to me, and I'm not a Philadelphia lawyer or an engineer ... not even close.

On a final note, I just don't get this "post-race" inspection failure. If the car passed "pre-race" inspection, how the hell can it fail "post-race"? There is a NASCAR Official in every pit during the stops. How can the pit crew do something illegal? I just don't get it. But then again, I don't need to.

That's my story, and I'm sticking to it! So there!





http://www.smileycentral.com/sig.jsp?pc=ZSzeb112&pp=ZN

[clutch]

Originally Posted by PenelopePitStop

Now, wasn't it Waltrip's team that messed with the fuel (or something) at the very start of the season, were corrected, then did it again?


http://www.smileycentral.com/sig.jsp?pc=ZSzeb112&pp=ZN

..Did it again...? no they didnt

[PenelopePitStop]

Originally Posted by clutch

..Did it again...? no they didnt

I didn't mean they did it again in another race. I meant they did it anyway, and got caught. I could be wrong. Was it Daytona?

[clutch]

Originally Posted by PenelopePitStop

I didn't mean they did it again in another race. I meant they did it anyway, and got caught. I could be wrong. Was it Daytona?

Yes PP, first race of the season Daytona......but I dont think we actually ever found out was the "substance" was

[Nevadastars]

Originally Posted by SpaceCadet

Why? Just curious.

No particular reason SC, except the original poster stated that fans, such as myself, were "weak" when bringing up the cheatin' thing. So, I fired back a minor volley.

[Phils20]

Originally Posted by PettyBlue

I find that everytime JJ wins all I read here is cheater.Give it a break,will ya?Some form of cheating has gone on at every cup race since the first one ran and by more than one in the field.What is it,only the first three or five or top finishing makes get pulled post race.How many others not pulled are cheating?Hell it's been 16 teams just in 2007 cheating.Some call it an edge not cheating.Seems HMS may be better at getting that edge than all others.So what catchup others.

For me it comes from the fact that the 6, count em, 6 times Chad has been caught cheating since 2001 rank him the top offender in the garage among active crew chiefs. That is good enough for me. It's a shame that JJ has to get lumped in with him, but that is how it goes. JJ deserves to have an untarnished record, and HE as my respect. Especially after giving it all for the win yesterday, when so many drivers would have just point raced.

However, I don't call foul at every race. He has won a lot. and I'm ont enough of a basher to question every win. The biggest thing about Chad is that he never even says he's sorry, or admits that he has done wrong, no matter how blatant.

The only time JJ annoyed me was when he dedicated the DAytona 500 win to all the haters of the 48. What did he expect, after they were caught with that lowering device, and then still won the race.

I would think that fans of his would be angry when they are caught cheating. I wouldn't want my owner to cheat. RCR and Gibbs have never been caught cheating. They did take that one car of Stewarts, and never did find anything wrong with it. You can win without it, and get a lot more of my respect when you do.

[SpaceCadet]

Originally Posted by Nevadastars

No particular reason SC, except the original poster stated that fans, such as myself, were "weak" when bringing up the cheatin' thing. So, I fired back a minor volley.

Ok, I gotcha. I guess the ol' brain's having a foof attack today - again. Even the most obvious stuff requires an explanation on days like this.

[Racer Duck]

Originally Posted by PenelopePitStop

On a final note, I just don't get this "post-race" inspection failure. If the car passed "pre-race" inspection, how the hell can it fail "post-race"? There is a NASCAR Official in every pit during the stops. How can the pit crew do something illegal? I just don't get it. But then again, I don't need to.

If the pre-race inspection resulted in the cars being impounded, then I agree, but it doesn't. In fact, the cars are inspected several times, for different things thru-out the race weekend because the crews can do just about anything they want in the garage and there's no NASCAR official monitoring what goes on in the garage.

Some of the silly "post-race" failures are just that: silly. Still, it's not uncommon for any sanctioning body to inspect cars after the race. At most short tracks the top 3 are guaranteed a "tear down". But to quibble over a quarter inch too low is ridiculous.

[DOF_power]

Originally Posted by PenelopePitStop

If the car passed "pre-race" inspection, how the hell can it fail "post-race"?
There is a NASCAR Official in every pit during the stops. How can the pit crew do something illegal? I just don't get it. But then again, I don't need to.

Surely you must be kidding.
Here are some examples from F1, I'm sorry I don't know so much about NASCAR's own such incidents :


a] The custom wing.
There's one inspection wing witch is heavy as hell custom made so that the car passes the FIA pre race inspection for minimum weight. The wing is then replaced with a light race wing and now the car is under the FIA legal minimum weight.

b] The water cooled brakes.
Tanks are instaled and filled with water suposebly to cool the brakes. The car passes FIA pre race inspection for minimum weight. During the race the water is dumped on the track and now the car is under the FIA legal minimum weight.

c] The leveling suspensions.
The car is equipped with hydropneumatique suspensions and passes the FIA pre race minimum ride height inspection. But during the races the ride height is modified thanks to the leveling caracteristics of the suspensions and thus the car is no longer withing the legal ride height.


And there are many more such examples.
Therefor the need for post race inspection, because the teams can be very very very creative in their interpretation.

But the post race inspections are themselves not full proof.

[PettyBlue]

Originally Posted by DOF_power

Surely you must be kidding.
Here are some examples from F1, I'm sorry I don't know so much about NASCAR's own such incidents :


a] The custom wing.
There's one inspection wing witch is heavy as hell custom made so that the car passes the FIA pre race inspection for minimum weight. The wing is then replaced with a light race wing and now the car is under the FIA legal minimum weight.

b] The water cooled brakes.
Tanks are instaled and filled with water suposebly to cool the brakes. The car passes FIA pre race inspection for minimum weight. During the race the water is dumped on the track and now the car is under the FIA legal minimum weight.

c] The leveling suspensions.
The car is equipped with hydropneumatique suspensions and passes the FIA pre race minimum ride height inspection. But during the races the ride height is modified thanks to the leveling caracteristics of the suspensions and thus the car is no longer withing the legal ride height.


And there are many more such examples.
Therefor the need for post race inspection, because the teams can be very very very creative in their interpretation.

But the post race inspections are themselves not full proof.

Wow,say what in F1.Lol.

[DOF_power]

>



^ All true and it happened PettyBlue.

And it still continues today. For example in the last lap(s) of a race and winner's lap the drivers intentionaly colect as much debris as possible to bring the weight in the legal limit when it's checked after the race.
If this debris would be scraped from the cars/be disregarded, nobody would be in the legal weight under the regulations. Everyone knows this is stupid, but the hey that's the way it is.

And such "creativity" is not restricted to a particular sport.

[wingkey1]

If the car passed "pre-race" inspection, how the hell can it fail "post-race"? There is a NASCAR Official in every pit during the stops. How can the pit crew do something illegal?

Many post race failures are due to changes that have nothing to do with "cheating or illegal", though many would have us believe otherwise.

As a simple yet common example, metal fatigue in a great number of suspension parts can change ride heights. Springs can fail to return to pre race, at rest static heights, shocks bind for a number of reasons and can result in either higher or lower post race at rest static heights. The number of suspension related parts alone that are subject to partial and/or complete failure than can impact pre/post race measurement change is significant.

While a team may still be subject to penalty for failures outside of their ability to directly control and influence, the penalties are typcially less than those where same degree of failure (to meet post race specs) is due to obviously intentional, and performance advantageous adjustments.

[PenelopePitStop]

Originally Posted by wingkey1

As a simple yet common example, metal fatigue in a great number of suspension parts can change ride heights. Springs can fail to return to pre race, at rest static heights, shocks bind for a number of reasons and can result in either higher or lower post race at rest static heights. The number of suspension related parts alone that are subject to partial and/or complete failure than can impact pre/post race measurement change is significant.

While a team may still be subject to penalty for failures outside of their ability to directly control and influence, the penalties are typcially less than those where same degree of failure (to meet post race specs) is due to obviously intentional, and performance advantageous adjustments.

You see? That's what throws me! I understand that fact, but how the hell can you be penalized for something you can't control? Wacky!

[Quality88]

Originally Posted by clutch

Yes PP, first race of the season Daytona......but I dont think we actually ever found out was the "substance" was

Last report was jet fuel additive or somethin along those lines.

[SpaceCadet]

Originally Posted by wingkey1

While a team may still be subject to penalty for failures outside of their ability to directly control and influence, the penalties are typcially less than those where same degree of failure (to meet post race specs) is due to obviously intentional, and performance advantageous adjustments.

I'm with Penny on this one. That's just wacky to penalize a team for changes during the race that are out of one's control, especially because these changes seem to be very small. Is there a bona fide reason why they do that? They've got a hard enough job policing the pre-race rule pushers. Why go after stuff they all know is happening under race conditions? Was there a precedent set for this somewhere in racing history? I mean, like, did somebody intentionally mess with a shock or a bolt or whatever, with the idea that if I mess with it just this tiny bit then after 200 laps or so it will settle/shift/move enough to give us an advantage? Just seems nuts.