[LSC9901]

I've already made my three "opinions" but I just want to add to the discussion about a couple of things. I like freezing the field. I find it a safety issue. Racing back to the line always provided the real possibility of another accident or at the very least irritated a driver because the leader would not let them by. In the same vain the lucky dog is crap. In no way should anyone be given a lap back. The lap was not stolen from them in the beginning so why should they get a free pass because of their location on the track ?????

[PenelopePitStop]

Originally Posted by Racer Duck

yes, but they did .. it was called "respect" and was a "gentleman's agreement" between drivers, not a NASCAR rule .. and everyone understood that maybe next time they would be a lap down and "what goes round, comes round." in fact, there have been several times bitter words were uttered when the leader didn't provide that opportunity for the lap-downer to regain a lap (and there was always "payback!") now, understand that the leader only slowed to about "caution" speed, so depending where the leader was when the caution came out there may have been lots of time or very little time for the lap-downers to regain a lap .. once the leader crossed the start/finish line you were where you were and everyone fell into line preserving their track order (the unlapped lap-downers at the end of the pack but having regained a lap.)

no, my issue is that it should be by running position on the track, not on the scoreboard. why should any driver be given preference just because he/she is higher on the scoreboard than another driver? they currently re-align the field so the lap-downers are behind the lead lap cars for any restart with 10 or less laps to go, but not at other times, so it makes sense, to me anyway, that the Lucky Dog ought to be given to the lap-downer closest to the leader's rear bumper. then it's the luck of the draw, not manipulated because of preference.

Yes, I understand the "gentleman's agreement". There doesn't seem to be anymore gentlemen on the track these days ... but that's another topic.

Ok ... let me try this again. So ... the leader just passed me, making me 37 laps down. I'm on the leader's bumper, and the car on my bumper is 1 lap down. The caution comes out and the field freezes. I go back to 36 laps down. The guy behind me remains 1 lap down, and is on the inside of the leader at the restart. Is that what you mean?

If that's the case ... ok ... hold on ... I'm about to break the rules now ...

That is flippin crazy, Man!

[PenelopePitStop]

Originally Posted by LSC9901

I've already made my three "opinions" but I just want to add to the discussion about a couple of things. I like freezing the field. I find it a safety issue. Racing back to the line always provided the real possibility of another accident or at the very least irritated a driver because the leader would not let them by. In the same vain the lucky dog is crap. In no way should anyone be given a lap back. The lap was not stolen from them in the beginning so why should they get a free pass because of their location on the track ?????

No reason ... just one more example of futzin' with the rules. Of all the recent changes, this is the least of my problems with NASCAR.

[clutch]

1: definitely the top 35 rule

2: past champ provisional should be done away with

3: Sub par TV netork coverage

[Racer Duck]

Originally Posted by LSC9901

I've already made my three "opinions" but I just want to add to the discussion about a couple of things. I like freezing the field. I find it a safety issue. Racing back to the line always provided the real possibility of another accident or at the very least irritated a driver because the leader would not let them by. In the same vain the lucky dog is crap. In no way should anyone be given a lap back. The lap was not stolen from them in the beginning so why should they get a free pass because of their location on the track ?????

never said I LIKED the Lucky Dog... but it is what it is...

Originally Posted by PenelopePitStop

Yes, I understand the "gentleman's agreement". There doesn't seem to be anymore gentlemen on the track these days ... but that's another topic.

Ok ... let me try this again. So ... the leader just passed me, making me 37 laps down. I'm on the leader's bumper, and the car on my bumper is 1 lap down. The caution comes out and the field freezes. I go back to 36 laps down. The guy behind me remains 1 lap down, and is on the inside of the leader at the restart. Is that what you mean?

If that's the case ... ok ... hold on ... I'm about to break the rules now ...

That is flippin crazy, Man!

as long as they are gonna have the Lucky Dog and only 1 car gets the free pass then, to be fair, it needs to be not based on race position but the randomness of the running order on the track, i.e, closest to the rear bumper of the leader.

but, you're right! it's better nobody gets their lap back - as LSC is saying. 'course, as long as NA$CAR panders to $$$, that'll never happen.

[Racer Duck]

Originally Posted by PenelopePitStop

Yes, I understand the "gentleman's agreement". There doesn't seem to be anymore gentlemen on the track these days ... but that's another topic.

Ok ... let me try this again. So ... the leader just passed me, making me 37 laps down. I'm on the leader's bumper, and the car on my bumper is 1 lap down. The caution comes out and the field freezes. I go back to 36 laps down. The guy behind me remains 1 lap down, and is on the inside of the leader at the restart. Is that what you mean?

If that's the case ... ok ... hold on ... I'm about to break the rules now ...

That is flippin crazy, Man!

just a question, then I'm dropping this...

using your scenario, is it better on the restart for the slower (37 lap down car) to be moved to the rear of the pack or start inside the leader?

[DOF_power]

Originally Posted by LSC9901

In the same vain the lucky dog is crap. In no way should anyone be given a lap back. The lap was not stolen from them in the beginning so why should they get a free pass because of their location on the track ?????

I fully agree, but, if you think NASCAR's lucky dog is bad you should see F1.
There you have lucky dogs rule.
Meaning until these lucky dogs pass and the proper signal is thru you're not allowed to pit even if you're running out of fuel or else you'll be penalised. And if you're at the pits you're traped/closed in there or else you'll be black flaged (excluded from the race).
This is exactly what happened at the 2007 Canadian GP where 2 drivers were penalised and another 2 were black flaged due to this lucky dogs nonsense.

So no more lucky dog/lucky dogs nonsense.

[oncea3fan]

WELL, let see.

the top 35 is #1, the fastest race period!

#2 would have to be non-stock bodied cars, run what the manufacturer brung.

#3 multi-car teams, how long before 3-4 owners ownthe whole field,
this could blow up in nascars face quicker then if there were 20-25 different owners.


what duck is saying is that under the old rules(racing back to the yellow) the car closest to the leader were the ones that got the chance to get that lapp back. if you must give anything how about anyone with in the qualifing gap time(pole to 43rd) behind the leader get it back.
that way each track it'd be different, and you'd have to earn it by staying as close to that leader as possible just like to did years ago.

sorry off topic

[Bob Tanner]

Wow! Lot's of good input, folks! Keep them coming.

Though I'd love to think differently, I know that as far as NASCAR is concerned, this is an excercise in futility.

However, I think I can get a wider audience to the problems we, as knowledgeable and interested NASCAR fans, see.

Now, if anyone of you having given me an input, please do. I'll probably compile everything and whip off the results to NASCAR hq in Daytona and to SIRIUS|radio.

[Stoney]

#1 problem in NASCAR "GREED" everybody is out to make as many dollars and sell themselves to the highest bidder. Bruton Smith has killed racing in the South single-handedly. First he bought North Wilkesboro then moved the race to New Hampshire. Then he orchestrated the Rockingham and Darlington sales and now his final move of treachery he is moving the Charlotte races to New York City to Manhattan. He is putting tremendous amounts of pressure on the owner of Martinsville to sell his track to him. If Bruton gets his way the South gets screwed. The only races we will be able to see will be in Bristol Tennesee, Atlanta, Talledega, Homestead, and Daytona. At this rate those will be moving to other parts of the country too. Greed is killing NASCAR plain and simple. It built a reputation on being affordable and fan friendly. NASCAR has forgotten who made it what it is today us the working guys. If Bill France Senior were still alive you can bet this stuff wouldn't be going on.

[DOF_power]

Stoney I agree about what you say ... but what-type-of/who's-fans ?!

The reason I ask is because in my experience I find that once a series grows there are all sorts of groups of fans instead of "the fan".
Some like/cheer a driver, a team, the glamor/IT-FACTOR, the technology, the crash-ertainment.

This joggling/attempt-to-please-some ends up pissing of many.

[Stoney]

Originally Posted by DOF_power

Stoney I agree about what you say ... but what-type-of/who's-fans ?!
This joggling/attempt-to-please-some ends up pissing of many.

Us the blue collar fans who shelled out our hard earned doaalrs to watch our favorite drivers drive before big buisness got in there and threw us out of the pits. Us the participants who now cannot afford to build a car that can compete because the Millionares/Billionares have taken over. Us the local guys who week in and week out race on the little bull rings hoping to get noticed. Now they want a polished wellspoken Jimmy Johnson/Jeff Gordon type. Gone are the Bubbas who made the sport, Dale Earnhardt would never have made it out of Concord Motor Speedway in today's climate. We are the forgotten ones who supported sponsors and spent our money on souveniers. It is a total shame.

[PenelopePitStop]

Originally Posted by Racer Duck

just a question, then I'm dropping this...

using your scenario, is it better on the restart for the slower (37 lap down car) to be moved to the rear of the pack or start inside the leader?

Oh, no, RD! You're not tricking me with that one! "Better" is not part of the discussion ... not to me anyway.

I have no issue with how the cars line up at the restart, Lucky Dog or no Lucky Dog.

[LSC9901]

OK ... I'll bite. It would be better for anyone (1 lap or 37 laps down) to start on the inside of the leader. Better chance to regain a lap.

Did I get it right ???

[Racer Duck]

was not the point of the question. I meant "better for the race in general".

I guess if I'm 37 laps down, the fact I'm on TV on the front row for the restart is goodness (gotta think of the sponsors) 'cause getting a lap back isn't going to help my situation much. However, 'cause I'm 37 laps down, my car isn't very competitive and I'm really a rolling roadblock and potentially the cause of the next caution within the next few laps.