[simple simon]

over the past few weeks or so this forum has seen rumblings over some drivers making their stock car debut in Nextel Cup

this thread is not here to rehash the same old debates, and just continue going around and around in the same circles (a racing reference ) .... it is here to start a new debate and hopefully help to clear up and maybe better understand the old ones

my main question here came to me recently ..... many people (on this forum and in the media) have made it clear they would rather see inexperienced drivers debut in Busch cars rather then Cup cars ...... well that got me to thinking ........ just what really is the difference between Busch and Cup ?

i pulled these off wikipedia

Busch Series

• Engine displacement: 358 in³ (5.8 L) Pushrod V8
• Transmission: 4 speed Manual
• Weight: 3,100 lb (1406 kg) Minimum (with out driver); 3,300 lb (1497 kg) Minimum (with driver)
• Power output: 650-700 hp (485-522 kw) unrestricted, ~450 hp (335 kW) restricted
• Fuel: 98 octane unleaded gasoline
• Fuel capacity: 22 U.S. gallons (83.2 L)
• Fuel delivery: Carburetion
• Compression ratio: 9:1
• Aspiration: Naturally aspirated
• Carburetor size: 390 ft³/min (184 L/s) 4 Barrel
• Wheelbase: 105 in (2.6 m)
• Steering: Power, recirculating ball

Nextel Series

• Engine Displacement: 358in³ (5.9L) Pushrod V8
• Transmission: 4 Speed Manual
• Weight: 3200lbs. (1455kg) Minimum with out driver; 3400lbs. (1545kg) Minimum with driver
• Power Output: ~750hp (560kw) unrestricted[9]; ~500hp (373kw) with restrictor plate [10]
• Fuel: 98 octane unleaded gasoline
• Fuel Capacity: 17.75 U.S. Gallons (67.2 Liters)(most tracks)
• Fuel Delivery: Carburetion
• Compression Ratio: 12.5:1
• Aspiration: Naturally aspirated
• Carburetor size: 750-830 cubic feet per minute (354-392 liters per second) 4 barrel
• Wheelbase: 110in (2.8m)
• Steering: Power, recirculating ball

now seriously .... these cars seem so similar to me .. does it really matter which you drive ?

let's even say at a certain track the Busch cars top out at 170mph .. at the same track the Cup cars top out at 195mph ....... does that difference really mean anything ? ....... im serious here .. im thinking a serious crash can kill people at either speed ........ isnt that what all the hulla-ballou is all about .. safety ?

i guess im saying, it seems to me both series cars are basically the same size with basically the same power ........ so i suppose i really dont get it

to me basketball is a great analogy

High School basketball (local track)
College basketball (Busch Series)
NBA (Cup Series)

some guys, very few but some, really are good enough to jump from High School right into the NBA

(please dont just reply to tell me people arent killed playing basketball .... i know that and its a waste of everyones time)

[PettyBlue]

Originally Posted by simple simon

some guys, very few but some, really are good enough to jump from High School right into the NBA

Can you say Kobe?lol.

[simple simon]

i just checked the stats for qualifying speeds, and it is a lot closer then i thought

Atlanta Busch Pole 191.080 .... Atlanta Nextel Pole 193.124

really makes me feel all the more the only difference is the money and fame ..... so i dont see why so many people are bent out of shape over it

[kcoruol]

People arent killed playing basketball.






OK, I'm just guessing here, it's the price of the tickets.

I suppose when you are paying $100, $200, $300 bucks per ticket you want to see the big names race and you certainly don't want to have your favorite driver taken out by some French guy who never raced NASCAR before.

I guess it'd be like spending big bucks to go to the Superbowl to see your favorite team play, but when the game starts your star quarterback (insert name) is sitting on the sidelines while some quarterback from the Canadian Football League is substituted in.

[Racer Duck]

there's 2 primary differences between the Busch and Nextel cars:

• engine compression ratio:
  • the Busch engine is a "low" compression engine (9:1) .. as such it has little power at lower rpms .. usually these engines don't make any significant power until they get into their power band around 5500-8500 rpm
  • the Nextel engine is a "high" compression engine (12.5:1) .. it makes power all the way from the bottom and will usually reach significantly higher rpms than the low compression versions
  • the primary performance difference between the two is acceleration, the high compression engine will accelerate much faster than the low compession engine .. this holds true until both reach their operating power band, then they're approximately equal in performance
• the wheelbase
  • the Busch car is a short wheelbase car (105") and is easier to turn
  • the Nextel car is a long wheelbase car (110") and is more stable at higher speeds
  • basically, if a race track has tight turns the 105" car has the advantage, but if the track has wide sweeping turns and long straights, the 110" car has the advantage
  • understand, though, 110" wheelbase is still short .. think or a BMW X3 or Toyota Tacoma regular cab, they're both 110" wheelbase vehicles.

[Lefturn]

That would explain why there are so many 'Busch bashers'. It can really make a difference learning a few adjustments on Saturday for preparing for the Cup race on Sunday.

Next year the COT will be running full time. How does the COT compare to Busch cars?

[Campbell]

I heard somewhere that this may be the last year for the Busch race. Is that true? Is Busch beer just pulling sponsorship and the race will change names or will this really end the race all together?

[SpaceCadet]

Originally Posted by Lefturn

That would explain why there are so many 'Busch bashers'. It can really make a difference learning a few adjustments on Saturday for preparing for the Cup race on Sunday.

Next year the COT will be running full time. How does the COT compare to Busch cars?

I'm sure RD or one of the other tech experts can answer this far better than I, but my understanding is that the COT is quite different from the Busch cars. Maybe the Buschwhacker's won't find it so helpful to run the Busch race and there will be less of them doing it. One can hope.

[PaulPosition]

Originally Posted by Campbell

I heard somewhere that this may be the last year for the Busch race. Is that true? Is Busch beer just pulling sponsorship and the race will change names or will this really end the race all together?

It's just Busch beer pulling sponsorship.

If I heard the story well, it's something around the lines of :
- NASCAR asking Busch for more money ($30M ?)
- Busch saying 'Thanks but no thanks'
- NASCAR shopping around for new sponsorship
- ... not finding any...
- ... dropping its price ...
- ... finally brokering a deal for much less ($10M ?) with Nationwide

So next year we'll have Sprint (cup) and Nationwide... Busch had been sponsoring the series for so long, it seems unbelievable how they were pushed off.

[jks812]

Originally Posted by PaulPosition

It's just Busch beer pulling sponsorship.

If I heard the story well, it's something around the lines of :
- NASCAR asking Busch for more money ($30M ?)
- Busch saying 'Thanks but no thanks'
- NASCAR shopping around for new sponsorship
- ... not finding any...
- ... dropping its price ...
- ... finally brokering a deal for much less ($10M ?) with Nationwide

So next year we'll have Sprint (cup) and Nationwide... Busch had been sponsoring the series for so long, it seems unbelievable how they were pushed off.

It seems unbelievable that Nascar went from wanting $30m from Busch down to $10m for Nationwide. Seems to me they're telling Busch we been screwing you all these years.

[PaulPosition]

Originally Posted by jks812

It seems unbelievable that Nascar went from wanting $30m from Busch down to $10m for Nationwide. Seems to me they're telling Busch we been screwing you all these years.

Don't take my word for it..

I'm a uber-noob at all things Nascar, just repeating something I read somewhere which may, or may not, be true.

[jks812]

Originally Posted by PaulPosition

Don't take my word for it..

I'm a uber-noob at all things Nascar, just repeating something I read somewhere which may, or may not, be true.

Didn't mean it that way. I know it's true. Just saying hard to believe they would tell Busch who has sponsored it for years that they have to pay $30m and then turn around and tell Nationwide they can do it for $10m. I think Nascar thought since Busch had sponsored it for so long, they could make a few extra million off of them.

[Racer Duck]

COT vs Busch:

a whole different animal, night and day, completely different aero and setups, COT is wider & taller & longer. driveline is the same, mostly, except for the engines.

Nationwide vs Busch:

after Busch backed out, NA$CAR found out their hunch that the series was worth more was all wet. don't know if they re-approached Busch when the price got under $20M, but suspect if they did, Busch told them where to put it. other big names looked at the deal and turned their back on it.

Nationwide has been insuring mobile homes and motorcycles for years .. finally are trying to go big time .. guess they have a little cash to throw around, but liked the "exclusivity" clause NA$CAR implemented for Nextel so they got GEICO booted and accepted the deal.

think about this: Nationwide only has to pony up $10M a year. for that they get a prominant position on NASCAR.COM, their name mentioned every time someone talks about the "cup lite" series on the air or in print and their name displayed multiple times when their series races are televised. not a bad deal for them. But I doubt the $10M is gonna cover the expenses of the series like it's supposed to...

[wingkey1]

Originally Posted by jks812

It seems unbelievable that Nascar went from wanting $30m from Busch down to $10m for Nationwide. Seems to me they're telling Busch we been screwing you all these years.

Have never seen that NASCAR ever officially rolled out/published/advertised an asking price for the series. It really would not be good sense to do anyway. The $30 - $45M figure, whenever seen in an article associated with Busch leaving or others entering sponsorship was always something on the lines of - "industry analysts estimate". Never - NASCAR asking or selling. Could never find Busch official statement that "asking price was too high" either.

Would like to proven wrong, but don't see it's possible to date.

Industry analysts and medidiots are closely related. Can be found at edge of cliffs searching for lemmings.

[bears9]

Busch is for Cup want to Be's