[Racer Duck]

Originally Posted by bears9

Busch is for Cup want to Be's

I guess that goes for last night's winner, Jeff Burton? He said he really enjoys Busch racing, but realizes who pays the bills (Cup), so has to adjust his Busch schedule as needed...

then there was the self-induced crash last night by "This is MY house" Johnson running his 3rd Busch race this year...

oh yeah, add Edwards, Harvick, Biffle, Kenseth, Boyer, Kyle Busch and Hamlin to that list also... they've run most of the Busch races this year.

in fact, I had to check the lineup a couple times to make sure it was a Busch race .. all the announcers talked about was the Chase and the Chasers...

[Bob Tanner]

Originally Posted by Racer Duck

there's 2 primary differences between the Busch and Nextel cars:[list][*]engine compression ratio:[list][*]the wheelbase
]

Ducks, can I respectfully add a third difference? This is a reason which, I feel, makes it all the more wrong for the Cup Raiders to compete en masse, in BGN.

Kyle Busch took $78K away from the Busch regulars when he won Talladega.
Jeffy Pooh won $279K winning the Talladega Cup race.

Cup driver's presence provides less than 30% to the Cup Lite races (most of this comes from the theory that they "put butts in the seats," a theory which I have never seen proven).
The cost of having a couple of Busch team, which is capable of running in front each week against other BGN teams not connected with Cup teams is less than the cost of a Cup team.
The cost of having a couple of Busch teams capable of competing against Cup Raider teams is equal to that of a regular Cup team.
Yet the purse for Cup competition is almost 400% higher than BGN purses.

...and the Cup Raiders, and their Cup teams come into BGN and take over 50% of the available purse money, not to mention 95% of the TV camera time.

Would someone please explain to me the rightness of the Cup Raider concept?

[Racer Duck]

don't look for it to get better now that the price of the series is less than half what it was. the only salvation is the COT and the possible change over to pony-car based cup lite cars. since there won't be anything except the tires and the snack bar that's the same for both classes, I expect to see many fewer "Cup Raiders" in '08 & '09.

[simple simon]

sorry but i still feel this is a very unresolved issue ...... as i stated before, it seemed to me many argued that drivers should not debut in Cup as it is more dangerous then Busch ...... to me that just isnt the case .. the cars and speeds are basically equal from what i have seen ..... so, is this just a case of people not wanting to see Gordo or another star wrecked, or is there anything to the safety issue ?

[Racer Duck]

Originally Posted by simple simon

sorry but i still feel this is a very unresolved issue ...... as i stated before, it seemed to me many argued that drivers should not debut in Cup as it is more dangerous then Busch ...... to me that just isnt the case .. the cars and speeds are basically equal from what i have seen ..... so, is this just a case of people not wanting to see Gordo or another star wrecked, or is there anything to the safety issue ?

[Campbell]

Originally Posted by PaulPosition

It's just Busch beer pulling sponsorship.

If I heard the story well, it's something around the lines of :
- NASCAR asking Busch for more money ($30M ?)
- Busch saying 'Thanks but no thanks'
- NASCAR shopping around for new sponsorship
- ... not finding any...
- ... dropping its price ...
- ... finally brokering a deal for much less ($10M ?) with Nationwide

So next year we'll have Sprint (cup) and Nationwide... Busch had been sponsoring the series for so long, it seems unbelievable how they were pushed off.

Thanks, that's very helpful. $30M is insane when you take the Nationwide deal into consideration. Something is probably going on behind the scenes with the top guys that is not being talked about.

[Racer Duck]

Originally Posted by Campbell

Thanks, that's very helpful. $30M is insane when you take the Nationwide deal into consideration. Something is probably going on behind the scenes with the top guys that is not being talked about.

nope, it's all about the buck.

a few years ago between seasons, Roush upped the ante for Valvoline to continue sponsoring Mark Martin. Valvoline said "see ya!" and went to Everham. I think Jack got the message but NA$CAR didn't take heed. when they tried it with Busch beer, Busch said "see ya!" also. then NA$CAR put out their "For Sale" sign, nobody even kicked the tires .. too expensive (when the only sponsor the series ever had walks away .. buyer beware!) NA$CAR finally had a fire sale and happened to snag Nationwide while they were looking in the windows...

what these knuckleheads don't understand is this is a free market and the sponsors can choose to walk away any time they want. try twisting the arm too much and you'll be left with an empty sleeve...

[jks812]

Originally Posted by simple simon

sorry but i still feel this is a very unresolved issue ...... as i stated before, it seemed to me many argued that drivers should not debut in Cup as it is more dangerous then Busch ...... to me that just isnt the case .. the cars and speeds are basically equal from what i have seen ..... so, is this just a case of people not wanting to see Gordo or another star wrecked, or is there anything to the safety issue ?

Never thought of it that way. Just seems like even if they are some what similar, you should start at the bottom and work your way up as you get experience.
As far as not wanting to say Gordon and them wrecked, I consider it a great race if I get to see Gordon or Johnson wreck.

[simple simon]

Originally Posted by jks812

Never thought of it that way. Just seems like even if they are some what similar, you should start at the bottom and work your way up as you get experience.

well let's see

at Charlotte, the driver finishing in 19th (where Villenueve finished) in the Nextel race the driver got $111,058 for 19th ... the Busch driver got $22,996 for 19th

seems like reason enough to try Cup to me ..... as the danger is the same

[Racer Duck]

ever wonder why drivers love to start their Cup career at the Daytona 500? yeah, the prestige is great, but the quarter million for last place is a BIG attraction. in fact, if I were starting my Cup career, I'd make sure it was at a race that paid well.

since both cars cost approximately the same to build, maintain and transport, why not go with the bigger purse?

.. also the Cup crews, being more highly skilled, are paid more (though some "moonlight" in Busch), but the purse more than makes up the difference... still I'd want the best crew I could get and they're in Cup.

[Bob Tanner]

Originally Posted by Racer Duck

nope, it's all about the buck.

a few years ago between seasons, Roush upped the ante for Valvoline to continue sponsoring Mark Martin. Valvoline said "see ya!" and went to Everham. I think Jack got the message but NA$CAR didn't take heed. when they tried it with Busch beer, Busch said "see ya!" also. then NA$CAR put out their "For Sale" sign, nobody even kicked the tires .. too expensive (when the only sponsor the series ever had walks away .. buyer beware!) NA$CAR finally had a fire sale and happened to snag Nationwide while they were looking in the windows...

[b]what these knuckleheads don't understand is this is a free market and the sponsors can choose to walk away any time they want. try twisting the arm too much and you'll be left with an empty sleeve...

Which is why NA$CAR will go to franchising just as soon as they can whittle the number of active teams down to a number between 40 and 44. This season they began with what...? 52? They have it down to around 47 now, if my count is correct.

When it gets into the 40-44 team range NASCAR will follow the big team's orders and create franchises. Why do we think these investment firms are jumping into NASCAR? Does anyone believe the powers behind Fortress Investments (the folks who just bought controlling interest in MWR) are long-time NASCAR fans? I predict that this is going to become very ugly sooner before later.

Speaking for investment owners, has anyone else noticed how much control of the Evernham Racing Ray has relinquished to Gillette since the merger. It looks to me as though Ray has been demoted to highly paid chief mechanic.

[LSC9901]

Originally Posted by Bob Tanner

It looks to me as though Ray has been demoted to highly paid chief mechanic.

I won't even come close to trying to defend what is going to happen in NASCAR with all these large companies buying in but .... isn't this what Ray wanted to return to ???

[Bob Tanner]

Originally Posted by LSC9901

I won't even come close to trying to defend what is going to happen in NASCAR with all these large companies buying in but .... isn't this what Ray wanted to return to ???

I would love to think so, Steve. However, I have found it almost absolute that after a person tastes success in upper management, it is a bitter pill to swallow to step down, let alone back.

Ray left The Felon and, with MOPAR's help, build (until this season) the most successful MOPAR group in Cup. What has happened to Ray would be akin to Bill Gates being delegated to managing production control at Microsoft.

I think Evernham is putting a smiley face of a bad situation and if the results don't improve, it wouldn't surprise me to see Gillette fire him!? .

[LSC9901]

Originally Posted by Bob Tanner

I would love to think so, Steve. However, I have found it almost absolute that after a person tastes success in upper management, it is a bitter pill to swallow to step down, let alone back.

Ray left The Felon and, with MOPAR's help, build (until this season) the most successful MOPAR group in Cup. What has happened to Ray would be akin to Bill Gates being delegated to managing production control at Microsoft.

I think Evernham is putting a smiley face of a bad situation and if the results don't improve, it wouldn't surprise me to see Gillette fire him!? .

I'm sure he could go back to HMS as a swing crew chief. He'd just fill in when the regular CC's are on vacation ... or in jail !!!

[Bob Tanner]

Originally Posted by LSC9901

I'm sure he could go back to HMS as a swing crew chief. He'd just fill in when the regular CC's are on vacation ... or in jail !!!

Jail?? A blasphemy!

As we can tell from Rick's exploits with price fixing and mail fraud, justice does not reign supreme at Hendrick Motor Sports.