[Jeffrey4318]

This is what I feel about the situation. The owners and sponsors own the cars. It is their decision to put who they want in it not ours. If they feel that these open wheel guys are the way to go. Then so be it. It is a decision that will make or break them. To me right now Penske is the only big name owner that is going after an open wheel guy. Even then that open wheel guy is his driver Sam Hornish from IRL. Owners like Chip and Bill Davis I believe are going after these international super star open wheel guys to get their names out there and hope a big name sponsor will either stick with them or jump on board. That is why they are putting them in Cup seats now. The sponsors want these guys in the top series for all the international fans(that buy their products) to see. Plus you get a huge pat on the back from Nascar for boasting their international ratings which in turn lead to more sponsors.

In a few years the influx will die down and the ones who have stock car talent will still be in Nascar and the ones who don't will be gone. It is kind of like the influx of young guns over the last few years. Eventually it filtered itself out. The good ones stayed and the bad ones are gone. Now most of the top rides are filled and no more rides for new young guns. Open Wheel guys are just the new fad...the new young guns.

[jks812]

Originally Posted by McMurray26

i am aware what gordon and stewart did...

i said if they went to another form of racing...

like if they went to f1 or irl

but hey i guess you got me

I also said in a later post that I had misread it and didn't see the part about them going to another series. Sorry.

[randye]

How much of this debate has to do with the notion that NASCAR is considered an All American Sport and in the past it has been comprised of "home-grown" talent coming up thru the ranks and earning a spot in the car? Now the pressure to win and keep sponsers is pushing the owners to get top-notch talent in a car immediately. Some of these sponsers wouldn't get any air-time at all, but now they are because of the name of the driver in the car. It's all about the money now that the sport has grown.

I'm not trying to pour gas on the fire, but a similar debate happened when Toyota was allowed into the sport. NASCAR has an American tradition feel to it, that evolved back in the moonshining days and now all of a sudden it's gotten bigger, more popular and is broadening out to a wider audience and talent base. I feel that some fans are having a hard time dealing with all of that.

I have to admit, that I wasn't particularily happy about foreign Makes in the series... but I'm still watching and becoming more open to it.

Call it.... fear of change....

[DOF_power]

Originally Posted by Jeffrey4318

This is what I feel about the situation. The owners and sponsors own the cars. It is their decision to put who they want in it not ours. If they feel that these open wheel guys are the way to go. Then so be it. It is a decision that will make or break them. To me right now Penske is the only big name owner that is going after an open wheel guy. Even then that open wheel guy is his driver Sam Hornish from IRL. Owners like Chip and Bill Davis I believe are going after these international super star open wheel guys to get their names out there and hope a big name sponsor will either stick with them or jump on board. That is why they are putting them in Cup seats now. The sponsors want these guys in the top series for all the international fans(that buy their products) to see. Plus you get a huge pat on the back from Nascar for boasting their international ratings which in turn lead to more sponsors.

In a few years the influx will die down and the ones who have stock car talent will still be in Nascar and the ones who don't will be gone. It is kind of like the influx of young guns over the last few years. Eventually it filtered itself out. The good ones stayed and the bad ones are gone. Now most of the top rides are filled and no more rides for new young guns. Open Wheel guys are just the new fad...the new young guns.

But Johnson, Gordon, Busch, Busch, Stewart and others are all open wheel guys. The open wheel guys go back to the likes of A.J. Foyt and Mario Andretti.
Now they're at NASCAR because of its money/popularity/IT factor. Once it would have been Can-AM, CART-Indycar, with some guys even making it to F1 (when USAC/CART-Indycar and/or F5000 were feeder series) and/or coming here from F1 retirement (M. Andretti, N. Mansell, E. Fittipaldi).

[DOF_power]

Originally Posted by randye

How much of this debate has to do with the notion that NASCAR is considered an All American Sport and in the past it has been comprised of "home-grown" talent coming up thru the ranks and earning a spot in the car? Now the pressure to win and keep sponsers is pushing the owners to get top-notch talent in a car immediately. Some of these sponsers wouldn't get any air-time at all, but now they are because of the name of the driver in the car. It's all about the money now that the sport has grown.

I'm not trying to pour gas on the fire, but a similar debate happened when Toyota was allowed into the sport. NASCAR has an American tradition feel to it, that evolved back in the moonshining days and now all of a sudden it's gotten bigger, more popular and is broadening out to a wider audience and talent base. I feel that some fans are having a hard time dealing with all of that.

I have to admit, that I wasn't particularily happy about foreign Makes in the series... but I'm still watching and becoming more open to it.

Call it.... fear of change....

Until 1962 there were foreign marques in NASCAR and even some foreign drivers.

And if we're talking about traditions:
Where are (something like) the stock cars, tracks like the dusty country back roads (they have that in Europe in the european rallycross series), dirt ovals, road courses (just 2 is almost 0) ?!




I would really love to see something like this today.
And such racing it's still possible (proof, european rallycross).




Now why can't modern NASCAR have something like what's shown in these pictures if we're talking about traditions ?!

NASCAR Fans: Be Careful When You Talk "tradition"

Date posted: 02-16-2007 S.C Smith
NASCAR Fans, Be Careful When You Talk "Tradition"




Among the complaints cited by the legion of NASCAR Nextel Cup fans upset with the arrival of Toyota at the top level is that it's a slap in the face of NASCAR tradition.

Really?

Allowing a variety of manufacturers into the series is certainly nothing new. With Chevrolet, Dodge, Ford and Toyota, the 2007 Nextel Cup series will have four manufacturers.

Check the entry list of the NASCAR Daytona Speed Week race on February 11, 1951, and you'll find cars from Buick, Chrysler, Ford, Hudson, Kaiser, Lincoln, Mercury, Nash, Oldsmobile, Packard, Plymouth, Pontiac, Studebaker and even a Henry J.

That's 14 brands, and it would have been 15 had a Chevrolet shown up.

All-American? Nope.
Sure, you say, but at least those were all American brands, since NASCAR has always been all-American, right?

Wrong. Check the lineup at NASCAR's first-ever road race in Linden, New Jersey, on June 13, 1954, on the grounds of the local airport. Yes, you had Lee Petty in a Dodge, Buck Baker in an Oldsmobile and Herb Thomas and Dick Rathmann in a pair of Hudsons. But the race was won by Al Keller in a Jaguar, and other brands in the 43-car field included Austin-Healey, MG, Porsche and even a Morgan. In all, 21 entries were foreign brands.

Fine, you say, but that was on a road course. NASCAR would never let foreign cars onto its oval tracks, right?

Wrong. The International 200 at Langhorne, Pennsylvania, was run on a 1-mile dirt oval track on June 21, 1953. There were six Jaguars — one was a fast qualifier — and there were a pair of Porsches, a Volkswagen and even an Aston Martin.

It was a bloody race. Driver Frank Arford was killed, Ray Duhigg suffered a broken neck and Lawrence Shultz was hospitalized with multiple injuries. They were driving, respectively, an Oldsmobile, a Dodge and a Plymouth. None of the foreign cars crashed. Dick Rathmann won in his Hudson with Lee Petty a close second in his Dodge, with Dick Allwine the top-finishing foreign car driver in his Jaguar, which came in 6th, 16 laps down.

When NASCAR returned to Langhorne the following year, none of the entries wore an import label — which meant the starting field dropped from 38 cars to 24 — though Wimpy Ervin made the race in his Henry J, which I mention because NASCAR does not have enough drivers now with names like Wimpy, Slick, Goober and another Wimpy, last name Sipple. Or Bub, Buckshot, Edsel, Elbert, Otis, Pop, Slim, Snuffy, Speedy, Tubby, and, of course, Fireball — all racers from the 1953 season.

Parnelli beats a Renault
But Linden and Langhorne weren't the last time foreigners raced at NASCAR. In the 1958 Crown America 500 NASCAR race at Riverside, California, a pair of Citroëns finished ahead of Parnelli Jones' Ford, though Parnelli did trounce a Renault.

In the now-defunct NASCAR Goody's Dash series, several foreign brands competed. That is, in fact, where Toyota started, before moving into the NASCAR Craftsman truck series, and now at the Nextel Cup level.

So if you're peeved about Toyota entering NASCAR, that's fine.

But listen, Wimpy, or Bub, or Goober, or whatever your name is: Think again about claiming tradition as your reason.

[LSC9901]

Originally Posted by randye

How much of this debate has to do with the notion that NASCAR is considered an All American Sport and in the past it has been comprised of "home-grown" talent coming up thru the ranks and earning a spot in the car? Now the pressure to win and keep sponsers is pushing the owners to get top-notch talent in a car immediately. Some of these sponsers wouldn't get any air-time at all, but now they are because of the name of the driver in the car. It's all about the money now that the sport has grown.

I'm not trying to pour gas on the fire, but a similar debate happened when Toyota was allowed into the sport. NASCAR has an American tradition feel to it, that evolved back in the moonshining days and now all of a sudden it's gotten bigger, more popular and is broadening out to a wider audience and talent base. I feel that some fans are having a hard time dealing with all of that.

I have to admit, that I wasn't particularily happy about foreign Makes in the series... but I'm still watching and becoming more open to it.

Call it.... fear of change....

I too am watching it with great anticipation of just when Toyota will get the first win and when Honda and Nissan join. I also watch with much less anticipation of just when NASCAR starts falling out of the rating game. The "tradition" is gone. It is all about personalities and sponsors now. It is a natural evolution, but I'm not excited about it.

[loco4pablo]

Look at the teams that are bringing in this influx of open wheel drivers, it's penske, Ganassi and red bull. These teams have their roots in open wheel racing so it's only natural they get thier talent from that pool. Teams like RCR, Yates and Gibbs to name a few have thier roots more in the stock car ranks so it's only natural they look for talent in that pool.
Gee is it any surprise that when Penske or Ganassi came into the sport that they might want to try an already established driver that they have already had a relationship with?
There are also many racers in motorcross that are trying to break into NASCAR (Can't remember their names) but I know Rousch racing has one signed as does JR. Motorsports. Don't hear any crying about that.
Whats the big deal?

[SpaceCadet]

Originally Posted by loco4pablo

There are also many racers in motorcross that are trying to break into NASCAR (Can't remember their names) but I know Rousch racing has one signed as does JR. Motorsports. Don't hear any crying about that.
Whats the big deal?

I don't care if the driver's come from Mars. To me, the big deal is making the transition safely. The basics of racing (oval track) are pretty universal, I think. I feel the issue is simply adapting to a new type of car for the driver. And if you're talking 2 wheel dirt motorcross (I'm assuming you mean 2 wheels here) jumping into 4 wheel pavement stock cars - well, that's a major leap, I don't care how good a rider you are. In my (much) younger days, I could handle a bike pretty well on some mighty tough terrain at what I think now was suicidal speeds. Hopping into a car and going in circles isn't even mildly the same. But as for where the driver's come from, what country what type of racing, I don't care. They just need to be able to drive a stock car. Some of them certainly do have the personality and "young folk" appeal to land some good sponsers. If they bring in the moola, somebody will sign them up.

[jks812]

Originally Posted by loco4pablo

There are also many racers in motorcross that are trying to break into NASCAR (Can't remember their names) but I know Rousch racing has one signed as does JR. Motorsports. Don't hear any crying about that.
Whats the big deal?

Thats true, they do have motocross drivers signed. However, haven't seen them on the track yet. Could be they're getting experience in testing and all before being put in a stock car on the track racing.

[Racer Duck]

Originally Posted by jks812

Thats true, they do have motocross drivers signed. However, haven't seen them on the track yet. Could be they're getting experience in testing and all before being put in a stock car on the track racing.

the bike guys are driving late models on short tracks for maybe a year or more, then will try ARCA & CTS.

[jks812]

Originally Posted by Racer Duck

the bike guys are driving late models on short tracks for maybe a year or more, then will try ARCA & CTS.

Was wondering about that and hadn't heard what they were doing.

[loco4pablo]

Let's just say, HYPOTHETICALLY that richard childers decided to start a RCR team in the IRL or DEI decided to get into that series. Where do you think they would look for thier talent?

[LSC9901]

Originally Posted by loco4pablo

Let's just say, HYPOTHETICALLY that richard childers decided to start a RCR team in the IRL or DEI decided to get into that series. Where do you think they would look for thier talent?

Ahhhhh ..... open wheel experienced drivers ?????