[thunderfoot]

Originally Posted by Bob Tanner

Hmmm...? We are in the same ball park, Simon. However, I see a couple of problems with your thesis.

I think that there are times when Cup and Cup Lite can co-exist to the benefit of both the competition and the fans. Daytona, Bristol, Charlotte, Texas, Las Vegas, and Talladega, to name a few. Tracks with big grandstands and a history of people coming from long distances to see a weekend of racing. If the Cup and Cup Lite run together, on an occasional basis, the Cup drivers won't become enmeshed in the lower Series and won't become identified with it.

Other than that, I agree with the idea of having separate venues. If you notice, when Cup Lite runs separately.

I see a couple of major problems with "Double Headers," Simon.

(1) If they are are different venues at different times, you'd probably have a total of...? seven - nine hours of auto racing in one day? I fear that would drive some to make a decision as to which series they would watch. Since Cup gets the lion's share of advertising, and have the biggest names, I think a lesser series might suffer.

(2) Both running in tandem isn't too realistic, IMHO. The major problem is the problem with pre-race festivities. I haven't been to a Cup race in years but I remember these ceremonies took up the bulk of the mid morning, right up until race time.
Then you have the question of tickets. People think they are raped when it comes to ticket price now. The additional cost of a Cup Lite Series race added to the cost of a Cup ticket would be sticker shock, to the "n-th" degree. Emptying the stands then refilling them would be a logistic nightmare.

I definitely love the idea of having the bulk of the lesser series' races on separate days, in separate venues than the Cup race. I'd like to see the lesser series go back to tracks like N. Wilks and Rockingham, and some of the bigger tracks Busch East and Busch West run on. Take it back to its roots, making it a feeder series for Cup and giving it more of a grass roots series, one real race fans could actually afford to attend and not necessarily have to drive fifteen hours, or sell your first born.

I still like my idea of NASCAR and IRL having a quasi-merge and running IRL on Saturday, as a lead-in for Cup would expand IRL (I still love my open wheeled racing), give it more exposure and revenue, and give the NASCAR fans a chance to watch some of its future stars (if the trend of open wheel to Cup transition continues).

Such wisdom as this needs to be stuffed in front of BF's face and then see what he would do with it. More than likely, not a damn thing. Could we give him a fine for "actions detrimental to the sport of NASCAR racing"? He seems to be rather free with that infraction. Turn about is fair play.

[Racer Duck]

Originally Posted by Bob Tanner

Since open-wheel Indy types are the colour of the day these days, how about NASCAR moving the Formerly Busch Series to run at a majority races NOT in conjunction with Cup races? Then, help the IRL Series. Work a deal with Tony George for IRL to run their shows in conjunction with Cup, filling many of the slots currently being filled by Cup LIte.

This would give NASCAR fans more of a chance to see the drivers who might be moving [up?] to Cup, put more butts in the seats for IRL races, gin up interest in a series that desperately needs new fans

That's a great idea, Bob. It takes a smart man to be humble and reap the rewards. I don't think Tony George is that man. And I'm pretty sure Brian France is not someone I'd like to do business with, even if I needed his fan base.

then there's that "new rubber"/"old rubber" problem .. the NASCAR teams are used to handling it, but as far as I know the only exposure IRL has to the problem is when they run the same weekend with CTS at Texas (and they're the headliner anyway!)

[DOF_power]

Originally Posted by Bob Tanner

Hmmm...? We are in the same ball park, Simon. However, I see a couple of problems with your thesis.

I think that there are times when Cup and Cup Lite can co-exist to the benefit of both the competition and the fans. Daytona, Bristol, Charlotte, Texas, Las Vegas, and Talladega, to name a few. Tracks with big grandstands and a history of people coming from long distances to see a weekend of racing. If the Cup and Cup Lite run together, on an occasional basis, the Cup drivers won't become enmeshed in the lower Series and won't become identified with it.

Other than that, I agree with the idea of having separate venues. If you notice, when Cup Lite runs separately.

I see a couple of major problems with "Double Headers," Simon.

(1) If they are are different venues at different times, you'd probably have a total of...? seven - nine hours of auto racing in one day? I fear that would drive some to make a decision as to which series they would watch. Since Cup gets the lion's share of advertising, and have the biggest names, I think a lesser series might suffer.

(2) Both running in tandem isn't too realistic, IMHO. The major problem is the problem with pre-race festivities. I haven't been to a Cup race in years but I remember these ceremonies took up the bulk of the mid morning, right up until race time.
Then you have the question of tickets. People think they are raped when it comes to ticket price now. The additional cost of a Cup Lite Series race added to the cost of a Cup ticket would be sticker shock, to the "n-th" degree. Emptying the stands then refilling them would be a logistic nightmare.

I definitely love the idea of having the bulk of the lesser series' races on separate days, in separate venues than the Cup race. I'd like to see the lesser series go back to tracks like N. Wilks and Rockingham, and some of the bigger tracks Busch East and Busch West run on. Take it back to its roots, making it a feeder series for Cup and giving it more of a grass roots series, one real race fans could actually afford to attend and not necessarily have to drive fifteen hours, or sell your first born.

I still like my idea of NASCAR and IRL having a quasi-merge and running IRL on Saturday, as a lead-in for Cup would expand IRL (I still love my open wheeled racing), give it more exposure and revenue, and give the NASCAR fans a chance to watch some of its future stars (if the trend of open wheel to Cup transition continues).

These must be the 3rd tread or so on the Busch series.
How about some regulation on banning experienced Cup drivers to come to it.
Another differentiation would be the propossed pony cars and IMO some road and dirt tracks.


About IRL and NASCAR, not gonna happen. Tony George wasn't a knight in shining armor saving american OW racing. Just a power hungry maniac who was jealous of the France family and Mosley-Ecclestone mafias. I think he even said at one point that he's gonna take on NASCAR and Formula 1 (like that was a brilliant idea).
That would spell defeat for him.

[Bob Tanner]

Originally Posted by DOF_power

These must be the 3rd tread or so on the Busch series.
How about some regulation on banning experienced Cup drivers to come to it.
Another differentiation would be the propossed pony cars and IMO some road and dirt tracks.


About IRL and NASCAR, not gonna happen. Tony George wasn't a knight in shining armor saving american OW racing. Just a power hungry maniac who was jealous of the France family and Mosley-Ecclestone mafias. I think he even said at one point that he's gonna take on NASCAR and Formula 1 (like that was a brilliant idea).
That would spell defeat for him.

IRT "3rd thread:" The Chosen 35 Rule seems to be almost universally despised here, and many here, and in other forums, are quite passionate about their feelings toward it. I'd say "3rd thread" is a conservative amount.

I'm not for banning Cup drivers completely from the Series. Having a small number of them in occasional races does give the lower series regulars a chance to compete against the Cup drivers. Plus, at the few selected races where the lower series runs in tandem with Cup, it would put more butts in the seats and thus, give the lower series a bigger purse to shot for.

Another unintended consequence of the outright banning of driver once they've run Cup is that, when they leave Cup (kicked out because of some young, fuzz-faced phenom, for example) might make it difficult for them to return to the lower series or CTS.

IRT Tony George and NASCAR; I agree. Unless Moses comes down from the Tower Terrace with clay tablets in his hands decreeing that NASCAR and IRL merge, it just ain't gonna happen. TG and Brian France would about a good a combination as Dale Earnhardt and Larry McReynolds were. I would term it "Insurmountable Egos."

No love for T.G. here. My feelings are tainted because I'm from the Indianapolis area and grew up loving open wheel and stock car racing, in that exact order.

Tony had a great chance to bring back real open wheel racing to the USA but blew it big time. CART was being controlled by the team owners who used it as their personal little playground and filled the series with a bunch of over-the-hill American drivers and a bunch of F1 wantabe's, and the tracks were almost entirely road courses. CART loved it, the drivers loved it, the "wine & brie" fans loved it but the race fans hated it. Like it or not, with one exception (golf) sports with a distinct foreign heritage (soccer{futball}, rugby, road racing) have never caught on here in a major league way.

T.G. could have (IMNSVHO, should have) dumped the techno-impossible rear engined things, and mandated front engined cars in IRL (USAC Silver Crown specs would have been a great choice!). However, he kept the "Touch me and I Break" cars and just changed the tracks (100% ovals) and drivers (a bunch of USAC kids never heard of outside the USAC family)


CART kept trying to go their merry way and just kept getting weaker and weaker. Then the mass migration of the CART prima donas to IRL. In my view, IRL didn't win the war; CART just gave the damn thing away.

Now we have IRL, which has become basically what CART was before the split, with the exception of IRL having a relatively strong single leader. American fans still don't buy it. We are as loyal to our roots as any Brazilian race fan, or any English, Spanish, or Italian soccer fan ever dreamed of being. On this side of the pond I believe American, if they had their druthers, would rather see a series comprised predominately of Americans, with some international flavour in drivers, teams and cars, thrown in.

There are some things going on, over on this side of the pond which I won't get into. As xenophobic as some people want to claim it is (I disagree vehemently), many of we Americans have had our fill of seeing GM and Ford auto plants close, while Kia, Toyota and Mercedes plants are being built. The same feeling is experienced when a telephone being answered with "For English, press one; por español, marca dos."

Ergo, T.G. allowing IRL to revert to its old ways gets him no Christmas card from my family. I agree; the thought of him "taking on" NASCAR and F1 is ludicrous.