[oncea3fan]

if robby restarts 12 th and only passes 1-2 cars and files an appeal they ain't no in way in heck they'll give him a beater finishing position.
he did the only thing he could do...........fight to maintain his spot.

I think the more everyone pours prays over ambrose the more I dis like him, appearently he drives the same way because the annoucers were talking about how he hasn't made anyone mad yet. they might as well throw on to HMS team so we all know he's one of nascars babies.

[jks812]

Originally Posted by Unregistered

come home marcus

Yes, go home Ambrose.

[wingkey1]

When we all got to see the replay of Ambrose spinning Robby that included within it a "yellow flag" waving, was it a segment yellow or a full course yellow we were looking at? Please do not give a "my guess is" response cause that is of no help and it has restart implications.

[jks812]

Originally Posted by wingkey1

When we all got to see the replay of Ambrose spinning Robby that included within it a "yellow flag" waving, was it a segment yellow or a full course yellow we were looking at? Please do not give a "my guess is" response cause that is of no help and it has restart implications.

I never heard them say. Just that they waved the yellow flags at the start/finish line and all turns. Whatever that means, maybe you know. I don't understand the full course and all that.

[wingkey1]

Originally Posted by jks812

I never heard them say. Just that they waved the yellow flags at the start/finish line and all turns. Whatever that means, maybe you know. I don't understand the full course and all that.

I never heard them say - You're right. We as fans do not know, yet in order to determine whether the restart is consistent with the rules applicable to the situation - we must know. Whether one agrees with the rule(s) is a whole 'nuther discussion.

With regards to "full course" vs. "segment" cautions, this is unique to road courses. Real common example would be couple/some number of cars spin in an area of the track. If all cars involved, given a reasonable and safe amount of time, are able to drive away leaving no racing prohibitive post incident conditions in the area of the incident (debris, etc.), a/the segment of the track will show yellow to warn drivers approaching the scene of the incident that they need to be aware (cautious) ahead. Once past the incident, they see green. The whole rest of the track can be "go for it" green. This is a segment caution.

If, after a reasonable and safe amount of time it becomes clear that the cars involved in the incident will not be able to exit the track without assistance, or they are able to leave but leave behind an "un-raceable" condition, a full course yellow is shown and the pace car picks up the field to allow for clean up.


If what was flying at the time of the "Ambrose spins Robby" event was a full course yellow, Robby would likely have rule conditions in his favor. My gut says it was not at the moment a full course yellow. The mess behind him appeared to be movng towards "cleaning itself" and because it was a restart situation, it was going to be some time before the leaders came back around to the segment.

If it was a segment yellow he has grounds for discussion.


We just don't know, but it does matter.

[Bob Tanner]

Originally Posted by Unregistered

what an absolute disgrace, I have been watching nascar for near on 10 years here in Australia and seen some of the worst managerial decisions by a govering body controling a series. but this one does it for me, maybe because it's an Aussie involved or not but nascar has once again allow itself to be placed in controvesy because of it's miss management of competitors who try and bully their way in this sport. shame on nascar.....this series will now be down graded in my eyes and where possible will influence when and where I use products that have a sponsorship role with the sport. i will not be making an effort anymore to watch there programming.
the one thing i was thankful for today, that rusty wallace was not commentating and steve wallace was getting all the tv space...this kid has alot handed to him and is highly over rated.
sorry for the typos
come home marcus this series is not what its all cracked out to be..............as they say, dont believe the hype

I have no idea what your name is Mate, but this is one American fan who agrees almost 100% with what you say.

Agree wholeheartedly about Stevie Wallace. When you mentioned the hype, you said a mouthful.

[Bob Tanner]

Originally Posted by wardfan

ok I guess I wasn't paying close enough attention but the way I see it is: When the big crash was going on presumbly NASCAR threw the yellow flag so how did Gordon get in front of Ambrose if you can't pass under yellow? Then they show Ambrose spinning Gordon and him sitting there as cars go by him. I assume that is why NASCAR is saying Gordon was in 12, 13 or whatever because by the time he got around and moving again that many cars had passed him. Robbie seems to be his own worst enemy and instead of getting back in line and finishing the race and then filing a protest he takes matters into his own hands. Because he flat out disregarded orders from NASCAR he should be suspended from today's race.

This is just speculation, Ward but I think what may have happened here is something you almost have to expect on a road course.

They were going into an "S" turn. They were past the flagman when he/she threw the yellow at the beginning of the turn. Gordon hit Ambrose in the right rear and bumped him out of the way to take first provable by damage to Marcus' right rear shown on TV immediately after the wreck). In the curve os the "S" Ambrose recovered and took a return shot at Robby, as they exited the turn. At this exact same time they saw the flagman at the exit of the turn waving the yellow.

That's kind of a rough time line for the affair. I've never witnessed Ambrose driving in a rough manner but, having seen some of the Aussie Super Car races, I don't doubt it's something he's not adept at. Robby, OTOH, has a history of being a stone-solid jerk. I write the wrecking and the spinning off to, as Dale Sr. would have put it, "One of them racin' deals." The restart, OTOH, was pure crapola!

[Racer Duck]

ok, all the Robbie fans on this side <=

and all the Ambrose fans on this side =>

and all the NASCAR fans here.

wow, not many in any of those groups.

let me start by saying I'm a fan of both Robby & Ambrose but neither are more "favorite" than the other. and that I wasn't able to see the race "live" 'cause I was out of town and the DVR shut off in the middle of the "big wreck" in turn 10. so I've had to piece together things from different sources, some from NASCAR.com, some for press reports, some from you guys.

Originally Posted by jks812

So if he passed Ambrose after the yellow came out, then he should have restarted in 2nd. Now regardless of that Ambrose turned him under the caution. How many other guys have been penalized for purposefully hitting someone under the yellow?

apparantly true, but as I watched the video on NASCAR.com it was apparent that Ambrose could not have seen the corner worker waving the yellow flag because of the corner worker's position on the track (hidden by the wall on the inside of the turn Robbie was approaching when turned.) also, there was a turn between the turn 10 wreck and where Ambrose turned Robbie that doesn't seem to have been covered by a camera at that time, so we have no idea whether that corner worker had shown the yellow flag or not to Robbie and Ambrose. we have to assume not.

Originally Posted by Jeffrey4318

Excuse me? It was Ambrose who spun Robby first! Under caution no less. Robby's pass could be considered clean in todays Nascar. The good ole bumb and run. Ambrose got mad because he got passed. He got toooo aggressive and turned Robby. Ambrose deserved what he got in return.

yes, Ambrose spun Robby first (maybe), but go back and look at the turn 10 video and you'll see Robby using Ambrose for braking .. he almost had the 59's rear wheels off the ground. a later shot shows the right rear fender on the 59 mangled. it wasn't that way when the 59 entered turn 10. so, Robbie was beating on Ambrose pretty hard. and as Ambrose and Robbie leave the shot of the turn 10 wreck, you'll see Robbie is still beating on him.. so what happened on that next turn, the one without any camera on it? Ambrose was too strong for Robbie to just drive around, so how did he get past? a little bump and run maybe?

Originally Posted by Jeffrey4318

Yes they did. They sent Gordon to the back because they were afraid he would spin Ambrose. They punished him before he did anything wrong. After he GOT SPUN and before they ordered him to the back all he did was drive up next to Ambrose and ride next to him or fall behind him in second. Ambrose should of been sent to the rear. Either send them both or just Ambrose. Nascar screwed up big....They really need to come clean on this one.

wonder why they got that idea? previous experience with Robby? they may not be "that smart" as Helton said recently, but they ain't dummies either. If they moved Robbie back for the reason you cite, there would have been a warning from NASCAR to the crew chief and spotter to get their driver calmed down "or else". no ever reported such a transmission.

I've watched Ambrose for a couple years now and have never seen him retaliate, though he probably should have several times. Ambrose has a rep as a good, clean driver who'll move over for a faster car, but still race hard for a position.

Originally Posted by wardfan

ok I guess I wasn't paying close enough attention but the way I see it is: When the big crash was going on presumbly NASCAR threw the yellow flag so how did Gordon get in front of Ambrose if you can't pass under yellow? Then they show Ambrose spinning Gordon and him sitting there as cars go by him. I assume that is why NASCAR is saying Gordon was in 12, 13 or whatever because by the time he got around and moving again that many cars had passed him. Robbie seems to be his own worst enemy and instead of getting back in line and finishing the race and then filing a protest he takes matters into his own hands. Because he flat out disregarded orders from NASCAR he should be suspended from today's race.

now we're getting somewhere. exactly when did NASCAR throw the yellow? we know a corner worker was waving the yellow when Ambrose turned Robbie, but for how long and why? was it a local yellow or a full course yellow? without definite video evidence, we can only take NASCAR's word as to the timing. a corner yellow doesn't prohibit passing but advises "caution". if the full course yellow wasn't thrown until after Robbie was spun, then it's certainly feasible that Robbie was, indeed, in 12th as there was a stream of cars passing him as he was getting going again. remember, NASCAR doesn't always throw a caution when we think they should, some times too late and sometimes too early. is this a case of a late caution?

so, until now we have some rough driving by all parties concerned, including the eventual "winner": Harvick. deplorable? Yes. should it have been stopped by NASCAR? Yes. but they didn't. but then there's a few of you who don't think rough driving is a bad thing.... if robots drove cars, rough driving might be ok 'cause a robot wouldn't have a temper which always caused an escalation.

when Robbie disobeyed an order by NASCAR to move to a specific position, he should have been black flagged (I remember somewhere someone saying he was). failure to respond to a black flag requires automatic cessation of scoring - Robbie knows that, his crew chief knows that and his spotter knows that. Robbie's protest will fail on those grounds alone. it doesn't matter what happened before or after the black flag, when he ignored it, he had just lost the race. a better protest would have been to park on the start finish line. but instead, he chose to wreck the car he was competing with for the win. an act of spite and temper.

Originally Posted by jks812

I never heard them say. Just that they waved the yellow flags at the start/finish line and all turns. Whatever that means, maybe you know. I don't understand the full course and all that.

a full course yellow is what happens all the time on the oval tracks. because road courses are seldom a single "altitude" (they have hills and such) and consist of many turns, most of which are hidden from direct view of the driver and spotter, corner workers are positioned such that as a driver approaches a corner they can see the corner worker showing a green, yellow or red flag (there's others, but these are what we're interested in) indicating the track condition ahead: good-continue racing; trouble ahead-proceed with caution; track blocked-STOP!

------------

so we're left with the following:

• does Robbie deserve what happened to him? maybe
• does Ambrose deserve what happened to him? probably not
• is NASCAR to blame for the whole debacle? most certainly - they had the means to control the situation, but, for whatever reason, did not.

If I were Brian France, everyone in race control would be on unpaid vacation. it was inexcusable they let the situation get out of control like they did. unfortunately, it's Robbie Gordon and Marcus Ambrose who've paid the price for NASCAR's ineptitude.

[LSC9901]

Originally Posted by Racer Duck

unfortunately, it's Robbie Gordon and Marcus Ambrose who've paid the price for NASCAR's ineptitude.

Nothing really new there.

[BringBackWilkesboro]

Originally Posted by Racer Duck

unfortunately, it's Robbie Gordon and Marcus Ambrose who've paid the price for NASCAR's ineptitude.

So they join the likes of Casey Mears, Lee Petty, Johnny Beauchamp, Jimmy Horton, the fans, anyone outside the Top 35... too many to list and I don't know that I could explain all the reasons.

I don't want to sound like I have a huge problem with NASCAR either. I do have my issues, but what they do is hard. There's no way from them do as many many things ad they have to do for as long as they have and not screw something up. We will always criticise them, and there will always be a victim. It's just how it works.