[Racer Duck]

wait 'till you see one in action!

kinda dull, actually.

[Souporscotty]

I've worked in a diesel engine factory for over 30 years. It's always just been a 'Damper' to me.

[King43STP]

Originally Posted by Bob Tanner

NA$CAR also thought that a season finish must be always close so they invented the playoffs. Manipulation taken to its highest conclusion and it just is downright WRONG!

I might agree with your statement if not for some facts, but of course NASCAR has in the past several years hasn't shown much thought. In ascending order here's the list.

2004; 6506-6498=8 Kurt Busch - Jimmie Johnson
1992; 4078-4068=10 Alan Kulwicki - Bill Elliot
1979; 4830-4819=11 Richard Petty - Darrell Waltrip
1989; 4176-4164=12 Rusty Wallace - Dale Earnhardt
1997; 4710-4696=14 Jeff Gordon - Dale Jerrett
1980; 4661-4642=19 Dale Earnhardt - Cale Yarborough

Six seasons with the outcome of less than 20 points and 21 seasons with the outcome of under 100 points.

[vincesanity82]

Nascar is in a new era, you cant stand around drinking moonshine before a race and hang with the fans afterwards in a local bar, change happens, doesnt mean the nascar of today is so bad, its just not the same nascar of the 70's, 80's etc..if anything its better, its more competitive, better safety..with anything that is successful brings money, big business has came in and realizes that nascar is at its all time high and wants to tap in to the money, doesnt mean the game has changed from its orgins..just means its getting more popular..

[Bob Tanner]

Originally Posted by vincesanity82

Nascar is in a new era, you cant stand around drinking moonshine before a race and hang with the fans afterwards in a local bar,..

Never tasted any shine which I thought was remotely drinkable. Haven't been in a bar in 5-6 years.

Originally Posted by vincesanity82

change happens, doesnt mean the nascar of today is so bad, its just not the same nascar of the 70's, 80's etc..if anything its better, ..

"Better" A rather relative term. Some people like liver; I don't. The fact that other people like it doesn't make it palatable to me.

Originally Posted by vincesanity82

its more competitive, better safety..with anything that is successful brings money, big business has came in and realizes that nascar is at its all time high and wants to tap in to the money, doesnt mean the game has changed from its orgins..just means its getting more popular..

More competitive... I'd say more manipulated.
Better safety... I agree and nothing wrong with that.
Successful conventions bring in a lot of money, too. But, it also brings all sorts of hookers and grifters.
Popular... Paris Hylton is "popular" in some circles, too, Vince. Popular doesn't always equal to acceptable.

But then, I'm just another of the disgruntled "Old Time fans" and it's been addressed that I have no business watching NASCAR in the first place. Maybe I'm just not sophisticated enough to pick up the nuances of this new NASCAR. But, since the original article chronicled "Long Time Fans Turn Against NASCAR," I guess I'm not alone in my pitiful unsophisticated state.

[Nevadastars]

Originally Posted by Mike24

Quite frankly I don't see what the problem is with the Chase. It's a playoff system, all other sports have them. So, whats the big issue with it in NASCAR?

No other sport involves EVERY OTHER TEAM while their "playoffs" are being held. That is the most absurd part of The Chase.

Back in the old days you had no corporate sponsors, you could run around and chase people, etc etc. That's what the 25-30 year fans grew up to. But the sport has changed not only into a sport, but into a business, and it is eating up at those 25-30 year fans.

There were plenty of corporate sponsors, they just didn't DEMAND the control they now have.

[Mike24]

Originally Posted by Bob Tanner

Never tasted any shine which I thought was remotely drinkable. Haven't been in a bar in 5-6 years.



"Better" A rather relative term. Some people like liver; I don't. The fact that other people like it doesn't make it palatable to me.



More competitive... I'd say more manipulated.
Better safety... I agree and nothing wrong with that.
Successful conventions bring in a lot of money, too. But, it also brings all sorts of hookers and grifters.
Popular... Paris Hylton is "popular" in some circles, too, Vince. Popular doesn't always equal to acceptable.

But then, I'm just another of the disgruntled "Old Time fans" and it's been addressed that I have no business watching NASCAR in the first place. Maybe I'm just not sophisticated enough to pick up the nuances of this new NASCAR.

now Bob, I know perfectly well that statement was directed towards me after what I said. I did not say you have "no business" watching NASCAR. The sport has changed into a business, and NASCAR is becoming so big corporate sponsors are going to come in. None of us can stop that. I miss the days of no corporate sponsors like you do, but when a sport becomes so big like NASCAR has, we can't do anything but accept the fact NASCAR is changing.

[Mike24]

Originally Posted by Nevadastars

No other sport involves EVERY OTHER TEAM while their "playoffs" are being held. That is the most absurd part of The Chase.



There were plenty of corporate sponsors, they just didn't DEMAND the control they now have.

While I do agree, how boring would it be to see 12 cars in one race? I guess you could create a separate points system for the chase drivers, that would be 1 solution. Then again, another solution could be to get rid of the chase all together!

[Bob Tanner]

Originally Posted by Mike24

now Bob, I know perfectly well that statement was directed towards me after what I said. I did not say you have "no business" watching NASCAR. The sport has changed into a business, and NASCAR is becoming so big corporate sponsors are going to come in. None of us can stop that. I miss the days of no corporate sponsors like you do, but when a sport becomes so big like NASCAR has, we can't do anything but accept the fact NASCAR is changing.

Yeah, Mike thast was a rather cheap shot. I sincerely apologize, however, your verbage left you kind of open and I just couldn't resist the opportunity. Once more, I apologize. No hard feelings, I hope.

That being said... I believe that I've used this analogy before but it fit once, maybe it'll fit again.
You statement above reminds me of a novel I read about a rapist. He held his victims down and told them, "There's nothing you can do about it; it's gonna happen. So, just lay back and enjoy it." The fact remains that the victim was still raped.

[vincesanity82]

Originally Posted by Bob Tanner

Never tasted any shine which I thought was remotely drinkable. Haven't been in a bar in 5-6 years.



"Better" A rather relative term. Some people like liver; I don't. The fact that other people like it doesn't make it palatable to me.



More competitive... I'd say more manipulated.
Better safety... I agree and nothing wrong with that.
Successful conventions bring in a lot of money, too. But, it also brings all sorts of hookers and grifters.
Popular... Paris Hylton is "popular" in some circles, too, Vince. Popular doesn't always equal to acceptable.

But then, I'm just another of the disgruntled "Old Time fans" and it's been addressed that I have no business watching NASCAR in the first place. Maybe I'm just not sophisticated enough to pick up the nuances of this new NASCAR. But, since the original article chronicled "Long Time Fans Turn Against NASCAR," I guess I'm not alone in my pitiful unsophisticated state.

I doubt paris watches nascar, so are you saying that since newer fans are turned on to nascar that they arent true fans, since its becoming more popular. and how is nascar today more manipulated? btw they had hookers back in the day aswell, this isnt something new..

[Mike24]

Originally Posted by Bob Tanner

Yeah, Mike thast was a rather cheap shot. I sincerely apologize, however, your verbage left you kind of open and I just couldn't resist the opportunity. Once more, I apologize. No hard feelings, I hope.

That being said... I believe that I've used this analogy before but it fit once, maybe it'll fit again.
You statement above reminds me of a novel I read about a rapist. He held his victims down and told them, "There's nothing you can do about it; it's gonna happen. So, just lay back and enjoy it." The fact remains that the victim was still raped.

LOL it's ok. I get cheap shots alot for some of my opinions, so I'm used to it!

As far as your comparison is concerned, I won't go into that.

[Racer Duck]

I once heard something that has stuck with me since: if you're not growing, you're dying. never found it not to be true.

NASCAR may be changing (will withhold opinion on that), but last I heard it's loosing market share on the televised races, souvenir sales are down, and there's more empty seats in the stands. sure doesn't sound like growth to me. put as many smileys on it as you want, the downhill slope on the chart is not good news and these changes have only seemed to steepen the slope.

[Mike24]

Originally Posted by Racer Duck

I once heard something that has stuck with me since: if you're not growing, you're dying. never found it not to be true.

NASCAR may be changing (will withhold opinion on that), but last I heard it's loosing market share on the televised races, souvenir sales are down, and there's more empty seats in the stands. sure doesn't sound like growth to me. put as many smileys on it as you want, the downhill slope on the chart is not good news and these changes have only seemed to steepen the slope.

The funny thing is the ratings are going down, yet news reports keep saying NASCAR is the most watched sport on television. I guess it's not that bad if the news reports are true. Then again, we are talking about "news reports", so I don't know if I should fully trust them.

[Bob Tanner]

Originally Posted by vincesanity82

I doubt paris watches nascar, so are you saying that since newer fans are turned on to nascar that they arent true fans, since its becoming more popular. and how is nascar today more manipulated? btw they had hookers back in the day aswell, this isnt something new..

Apology #2 tonite.

Sorry, Vince. My communication skills are about busted tonight. The point I was making was communicated so poorly it missed the mark completely. Mea culpa. It wasn't important anyway.

Thanks, I enjoyed the conversation. Keep the articles from the Observer and other sites coming. They stimulate a lot of conversation.

[vincesanity82]

Originally Posted by Bob Tanner

Apology #2 tonite.

Sorry, Vince. My communication skills are about busted tonight. The point I was making was communicated so poorly it missed the mark completely. Mea culpa. It wasn't important anyway.

Thanks, I enjoyed the conversation. Keep the articles from the Observer and other sites coming. They stimulate a lot of conversation.

I wasnt trying to upset ya bob, just talking man, thanks for the compliment on the articles..