[kcoruol]

Seems like every week there's another inspection infraction and accusations of cheating.

The latest being Kyle Busch's front springs.
They both have to amount to a total of 3000 lbs.
What was the total? 2000lbs, 1000lbs, 2999.8lbs?

I did read an article that was about the NASCAR measurements of the body and they aren't talking about tolerences being outside by less than inch, they are talking about tolerences outside by a hundredth or thousandth of an inch.

[BringBackWilkesboro]

It's hard for me to say if they're going overboard because one day I'm saying let the guys figure out ways to win for themselves and the next I'm complaining about how they need to quit it because I can't stand it. I can just say that in recent weeks they have certainly done what they said they were going to for once.

Now, I will never understand how officials can penalize a guy for failing post race inspection after they passed pre race. I'd think that would mean whatever infraction there was happened on the track and is out of anyone's control, but I'll stay away from that argument for now.

[LSC9901]

Originally Posted by BringBackWilkesboro

It's hard for me to say if they're going overboard because one day I'm saying let the guys figure out ways to win for themselves and the next I'm complaining about how they need to quit it because I can't stand it. I can just say that in recent weeks they have certainly done what they said they were going to for once.

Now, I will never understand how officials can penalize a guy for failing post race inspection after they passed pre race. I'd think that would mean whatever infraction there was happened on the track and is out of anyone's control, but I'll stay away from that argument for now.

I don't follow that one myself. There are so many things that can happen to a car on the track to change the height of a car. How does NASCAR see it as modifications by the team ???

[Nevadastars]

How can they be going overboard if the ones found illegal can still keep a win?

[LSC9901]

Originally Posted by Nevadastars

How can they be going overboard if the ones found illegal can still keep a win?

An even more concise question would be how can they be going overboard when they keep finding violations.

[kcoruol]

Originally Posted by LSC9901

An even more concise question would be how can they be going overboard when they keep finding violations.

That's part of my question. Is NASCAR deeming these violations as gross or are they splitting hairs.

Say the front bumper has to be 6 inches off the ground, they find one 1 inch off the ground, to me that would be gross because you can look at it and see that it's off.

Or are they finding a bumper 5 and 99/100 inches off the ground and not 6 inches and declaring it a violation. And would that violation result in changing the out come of the race?

[Pepsi One]

Originally Posted by BringBackWilkesboro

It's hard for me to say if they're going overboard because one day I'm saying let the guys figure out ways to win for themselves and the next I'm complaining about how they need to quit it because I can't stand it. I can just say that in recent weeks they have certainly done what they said they were going to for once.

Now, I will never understand how officials can penalize a guy for failing post race inspection after they passed pre race. I'd think that would mean whatever infraction there was happened on the track and is out of anyone's control, but I'll stay away from that argument for now.

Teams can definatly change the cars height from the ground during the race, and no i dont know how, but I believe thats why they made guys stop standing and jumping on the cars during post race celebrations, because when they found it to be too low, the team could blame it on the celebration in victory lane! I could be wrong though!

[SpaceCadet]

I am a techno moron, but I do remember my father always yelling "get off the car, stupid!" And a few times when they got off he'd say "give that car a tug, boy!" Now I realize he was talking about yanking up on the car so it wouldn't be too low. I think Duck and others have talked about this. It seems like a lot of infractions are similar. Are the tolerances too tight? Would a slightly larger margin for parts (shocks, springs, whatever else they've got in there) to settle help or make things worse because someone sees it as "gray" area? You know, I can change a tire, I can change a starter, fix/change a radiator and all those minor things you have to do to keep your car running, but this stuff boggles my mind. I notice at my local track the minute the race is over, the supermodified's put a jack under the rear end immediately. Is this so the car won't settle, thus hosing up their post race inspeciton, or for something as simple as avoiding flat spots on the tires? (See what I mean? Techno moron.)

[jks812]

Originally Posted by Pepsi One

Teams can definatly change the cars height from the ground during the race, and no i dont know how, but I believe thats why they made guys stop standing and jumping on the cars during post race celebrations, because when they found it to be too low, the team could blame it on the celebration in victory lane! I could be wrong though!

I think you are right.

[jks812]

I don't see how they can be going overboard if they are still finding the infractions.

[Bob Tanner]

Originally Posted by SpaceCadet

I am a techno moron, but I do remember my father always yelling "get off the car, stupid!" And a few times when they got off he'd say "give that car a tug, boy!" Now I realize he was talking about yanking up on the car so it wouldn't be too low. I think Duck and others have talked about this. It seems like a lot of infractions are similar. Are the tolerances too tight? Would a slightly larger margin for parts (shocks, springs, whatever else they've got in there) to settle help or make things worse because someone sees it as "gray" area? You know, I can change a tire, I can change a starter, fix/change a radiator and all those minor things you have to do to keep your car running, but this stuff boggles my mind. I notice at my local track the minute the race is over, the supermodified's put a jack under the rear end immediately. Is this so the car won't settle, thus hosing up their post race inspeciton, or for something as simple as avoiding flat spots on the tires? (See what I mean? Techno moron.)

Great post, Space. You bring up a lot of points I'm sure many others have thought about.

Unlike Charlie, I haven't twisted a wrench, nor sat in a car competitively in over three decades but I still understand some of the principles.

Low cars are good cars. It creates a lower center of gravity for better stability in the turns. Also the lower the car the less air going under the car, thus creating less drag. "Giving the car a tug" refers to some racing shocks which have a very slow rebound rate. This is waaay simplification but they are designed with a very slow rebound rate and basically keep the car a fraction of an inch lower while in motion. Trick springs are another way of lowering a car, but that really gets technical. Bottom line is that, in most cases if it were possible to inspect a car WHILE it was on the track, racing, they'd all be illegal as Hell! In the world of auto racing, a static car and a moving car are two very different animals.

Forgive me if I insulted your intelligence with the above but possibly there are some here who haven't any background in racing and it might explain a question which they might have.

IRT you question about "tight tolerances:" They need them "tight." Remember, these guys are looking for an edge over the competition which can be measured in a thousandth of a second. A 1/16th of an inch in height or width can gain this edge. Look at the adjustments you hear about them making to drastically change handling of a car; a single piece of tape on the air intake, 1/2 pound of air in a single tire...? If anything, I think they might well look at tightening the tolerances, not loosening them.

You mention "Grey Area." In today's NASCAR, whenever I hear that phrase I translate it to "An area where I can cheat."

Yeah, I know, "Innovative mechanics is a NASCAR tradition!" Very true, BUT that was then; this is now. Brian France and apparently most of NA$CAR's new fans want NASCAR in the big leagues, on a par with the major stick&ball sports. OK, you wanted it; you got it. Now the media puts the spotlite on absolutely everything. Today's drivers, crew chiefs, crew members, etc., must be the best in their field, PLUS they must be corporate spokesmen, and role models for today's youth. Is there a parent out there who wants his kids to be cheaters?

Again, yeah, yeah, I know; "The rule doesn't say that you CAN'T do it..." You can lie in two ways; by telling a lie, and also by omission (not intentionally correcting a falsehood). There are also two ways to cheat; by overtly breaking a rule, and also by intentionally breaking the INTENT of a rule. In my mind, the latter defines "grey area."

BTW, isn't the famous Maynard Troyer from your area? Great Supermod builder.

[SpaceCadet]

Originally Posted by Bob Tanner

BTW, isn't the famous Maynard Troyer from your area? Great Supermod builder.

Bob, thank you for your great explanation. You and Duck, BBW, LSC and others who take the time to answer my somewhat simplistic questions are greatly appreciated. I've always asked my Dad these questions, but he's very ill now. Although he and I will not be attending any races together anymore, I take a surprising amount of comfort in the fact that I can ask questions on this forum of people who love the sport as much as he does. The patience displayed for those of us who aren't as mechanically inclined as they'd like to be is admirable.

I'll be honest with you, I'm not sure if Maynard Troyer ever built supermodifieds, but he did race modifieds. The modifieds run about 5 times per year at Oswego along with the supermodifieds and small block supers (SBS), which run weekly. I've seen Troyer run many times at Oswego, and he was a thrill to watch for sure! I consider myself very lucky indeed to see the likes of Troyer and many others race on a weekly basis at Oswego. Last week Davey Hamilton hopped back into a super at the track (Oswego). Great guy and great driver. There's a rumor that Schrader or Newman will be showing up when the PRA cars run. Doesn't matter who's there. I'll be there every Saturday with my scanner, my son, and my poor husband in tow.

[LSC9901]

To Space and all the others who have that one or two question that you feel are simplified or even stupid .... NADA. You've heard it before and I'm sure I'll say it again before I get my reward ... the only stupid question is the one that never gets asked.

One of the many joys I get from GTG is knowledge. I'm more than happy to answer any question I have the answer to. The others you mentioned are the real big guns here on GTG and when they post I listen (OK I read).

Point is ask away ... how will you ever get an answer if you don't ask and maybe ... just maybe someday someone will ask you that same question and lo and behold ... you'll have the answer. Never underestimate your own ability.

[Souporscotty]

NA$CAR needs another Smokey. He made cheating honest.

[LSC9901]

Originally Posted by Souporscotty

NA$CAR needs another Smokey. He made cheating honest.

Chad is trying !!!