[simple simon]

Originally Posted by LSC9901

I may have heard of the Red Sox but football ????

football is a sport dog-fighters do when their dogs are taken away ............. for reference see Mike Vick

[LSC9901]

Originally Posted by simple simon

football is a sport dog-fighters do when their dogs are taken away ............. for reference see Mike Vick

Oh yeah ... I have heard of it then.

[Racer Duck]

Originally Posted by LSC9901

I may have heard of the Red Sox but football ????

that's that game where they kick a ball around .. really popular in the 3rd world countries..they have an announcer who hollers "Goooooooooooooooooooaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaalllllllllll llllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllll" when someone kicks the ball into a net.

[simple simon]

Originally Posted by Racer Duck

that's that game where they kick a ball around .. really popular in the 3rd world countries..they have an announcer who hollers "Goooooooooooooooooooaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaalllllllllll llllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllll" when someone kicks the ball into a net.

no no no

American Football

[PenelopePitStop]

Originally Posted by simple simon

they must be doing something right, they are possibly the 2nd most popular sport in the US ...... the NFL is clearly 1st and 2nd could go to baseball or NASCAR

and besides, it's almost all you guys talk about

There was actually a really good article relating to this on NASCAR.com the same day as the J&J fine announcement. I was going to post it, but decided not to.

NFL and Baseball were compared to NASCAR. Once again, the younger generation is the up-and-coming fan base to NASCAR. I don't think that's anything new. I first started following NASCAR in my mid twenties.

[Racer Duck]

Originally Posted by PenelopePitStop

There was actually a really good article relating to this on NASCAR.com the same day as the J&J fine announcement. I was going to post it, but decided not to.

NFL and Baseball were compared to NASCAR. Once again, the younger generation is the up-and-coming fan base to NASCAR. I don't think that's anything new. I first started following NASCAR in my mid twenties.

...and now you're almost thirty!!!

[PenelopePitStop]

Originally Posted by Racer Duck

...and now you're almost thirty!!!

Oh ... if only that were true!

[LSC9901]

Originally Posted by PenelopePitStop

Oh ... if only that were true!

I'll second that for myself.

[Bob Tanner]

From my personal point of view it would appear that NASCAR has painted itself into a corner with its silly playoff system and the Chosen 35 rule.

Playoff system: In the last 12-13 races before the playoffs start it is impossible to fine a driver at the top of the standings points which have a negative effect. At this juncture of the chase the top drivers will normally have a good point spread between themselves and twelfth place and though they may drop a few positions, when the playoff begin the "Points Fairy" comes down, absolves them all of their previous sins, gives them all 1000 points and a ten point bonus for each win. The drivers closer to 12th place might be in a slight bind but normally they are hot enough to make up most of the ground lost due to a fine.
The alternative to fine drivers dependent on their points standing would be blatantly unfair.

Chosen 35: NASCAR has now made it clear that a team does not have to present a legal car nor do they even have to make a qualifying attempt in order to start a race. #24 and #48 were found to have illegal modifications not made by accident but rather by design. Yet they were allowed to remedy the illegal mods and start the race. 48 other cars were found legal and two, the #10 and #4 not only were legal but made qualifying attempts. Yet NASCAR sent these two cars home and let two cars, which did not even go onto the track until after the qualifying was completed, take the green flag?

I say both of the above examples are good reason why NASCAR should revisit its rules and decide whether making an artificially close points chase and protecting the driver who sell the most tee-shirts is really worth it, for fairness' sake.

[clutch]

Originally Posted by Bob Tanner

Chosen 35: NASCAR has now made it clear that a team does not have to present a legal car nor do they even have to make a qualifying attempt in order to start a race. #24 and #48 were found to have illegal modifications not made by accident but rather by design. Yet they were allowed to remedy the illegal mods and start the race. 48 other cars were found legal and two, the #10 and #4 not only were legal but made qualifying attempts. Yet NASCAR sent these two cars home and let two cars, which did not even go onto the track until after the qualifying was completed, take the green flag?

.

Very good points there Bob. I hadnt thought about the validity of a car that was deemed illegal being eligible for the race and legal cars going home...great points and I'm an idiot

[PenelopePitStop]

Originally Posted by Bob Tanner

From my personal point of view it would appear that NASCAR has painted itself into a corner with its silly playoff system and the Chosen 35 rule.

Playoff system: In the last 12-13 races before the playoffs start it is impossible to fine a driver at the top of the standings points which have a negative effect. At this juncture of the chase the top drivers will normally have a good point spread between themselves and twelfth place and though they may drop a few positions, when the playoff begin the "Points Fairy" comes down, absolves them all of their previous sins, gives them all 1000 points and a ten point bonus for each win. The drivers closer to 12th place might be in a slight bind but normally they are hot enough to make up most of the ground lost due to a fine.
The alternative to fine drivers dependent on their points standing would be blatantly unfair.

Chosen 35: NASCAR has now made it clear that a team does not have to present a legal car nor do they even have to make a qualifying attempt in order to start a race. #24 and #48 were found to have illegal modifications not made by accident but rather by design. Yet they were allowed to remedy the illegal mods and start the race. 48 other cars were found legal and two, the #10 and #4 not only were legal but made qualifying attempts. Yet NASCAR sent these two cars home and let two cars, which did not even go onto the track until after the qualifying was completed, take the green flag?

I say both of the above examples are good reason why NASCAR should revisit its rules and decide whether making an artificially close points chase and protecting the driver who sell the most tee-shirts is really worth it, for fairness' sake.

Once again, very good points, and I absolutely agree. Sending "legal" cars home and allowing "illegal" cars to take the green is absurd. Also, as you implied, the "Points Fairy" will keep the cream rising to the top.

I love the sport, but this season has tarnished my faith in fairness. Too bad. And yes, NASCAR really does need to revisit its rules. I think I hate this "Chosen 35" thing most of all.

Ho-hum ...







http://www.smileycentral.com/sig.jsp?pc=ZSzeb113&pp=ZN

[oncea3fan]

it shd be , if you don't pass inspection you don't race/qualify, fastest 43 start, you penalty is only as bad as the competitors around you are good.

you gain no points nor lose any, but those around you in the points will advance.

this would still not have much bearing in the points now, but it will be an issue with sponsors and that will keep everyone in line.

why does nascar have to make it so difficult. ????

[Bob Tanner]

Originally Posted by oncea3fan

it shd be , if you don't pass inspection you don't race/qualify, fastest 43 start, you penalty is only as bad as the competitors around you are good.????

Be really glad that Bob Tanner is not King of NASCAR. For, if this were true, the inspection process would go something like this:
Cars are presented for inspection with the idea that said cars are qualification-attempt ready.
Normal inspection (templates, etc.) takes place. Any normal problems are given a specific time frame to remedy (one hour...?). If problem can not be remedied backup car is inspected. This car must pass first time. If not, team goes home.
In the case of fuel cell modifications, safety mods and COT body mods, IF THESE MODS HAVE NOT BEEN SPECIFICALLY OK'd BY OFFICIALS AT NASCAR R&D CENTER <<<SLAM!>>>Take you tool box, crew and driver and GO HOME! Fines will be forthcoming. By the way, leave the offending car, it's now NASCAR property.
NASCAR would either (a) dispose of the offending car, or (my personal choice) offer it for auction to ANYONE who might want to buy it, with proceeds of said sale going to NASCAR charities. (Do you think RCR or Gibbs would be interested in getting a Hendrick car to tear apart piece by piece and inspect?)

Originally Posted by oncea3fan

you gain no points nor lose any, but those around you in the points will advance.

this would still not have much bearing in the points now, but it will be n issue with sponsors and that will keep everyone in line.

why does nascar have to make it so difficult. ????

The way NASCAR has set up their "Class system," i.e.; Chosen 35 and Playoff 12, it is very difficult to assess any penalty which would be as fair to the "protected" and to the "unprotected" alike. The pain of point loss is dependent on where you are in the standings. Fines are dependent on how big an organization is being fined. Probation and suspension...??? Yeah, that's a really big one, isn't it?

I think I have come up with a penalty which negatively affects every team, no matter if they're in The Chosen or not, nor whether they are in the playoffs or not. Plus this will test just how damn good their crew chiefs and team really are. Try this one on for size:

Cheats, such as we saw at Sears Point would get the obligatory 100 points, $100K, yata, yata, yata <yawn> plus... For a time period (a week, 2, 4, whatever the crime demands, after the inspection is successfully completed, the cars are parked until they are pushed on the grid for the race. No practice will be allowed, and not qualifications will be made. They will start at the back of the pack in the car they presented for inspection! If they missed the set up, put in a screwed-up engine, didn't read their notes right, etc., etc. C'est la vie. Ain't cheating and life a *****?

Think a penalty such as that might make ANY team think twice before cheating?

[Racer Duck]

Originally Posted by Bob Tanner

Be really glad that Bob Tanner is not King of NASCAR. For, if this were true, the inspection process would go something like this:
Cars are presented for inspection with the idea that said cars are qualification-attempt ready.
Normal inspection (templates, etc.) takes place. Any normal problems are given a specific time frame to remedy (one hour...?). If problem can not be remedied backup car is inspected. This car must pass first time. If not, team goes home.
In the case of fuel cell modifications, safety mods and COT body mods, IF THESE MODS HAVE NOT BEEN SPECIFICALLY OK'd BY OFFICIALS AT NASCAR R&D CENTER <<<SLAM!>>>Take you tool box, crew and driver and GO HOME! Fines will be forthcoming. By the way, leave the offending car, it's now NASCAR property.
NASCAR would either (a) dispose of the offending car, or (my personal choice) offer it for auction to ANYONE who might want to buy it, with proceeds of said sale going to NASCAR charities. (Do you think RCR or Gibbs would be interested in getting a Hendrick car to tear apart piece by piece and inspect?)




The way NASCAR has set up their "Class system," i.e.; Chosen 35 and Playoff 12, it is very difficult to assess any penalty which would be as fair to the "protected" and to the "unprotected" alike. The pain of point loss is dependent on where you are in the standings. Fines are dependent on how big an organization is being fined. Probation and suspension...??? Yeah, that's a really big one, isn't it?

I think I have come up with a penalty which negatively affects every team, no matter if they're in The Chosen or not, nor whether they are in the playoffs or not. Plus this will test just how damn good their crew chiefs and team really are. Try this one on for size:

Cheats, such as we saw at Sears Point would get the obligatory 100 points, $100K, yata, yata, yata <yawn> plus... For a time period (a week, 2, 4, whatever the crime demands, after the inspection is successfully completed, the cars are parked until they are pushed on the grid for the race. No practice will be allowed, and not qualifications will be made. They will start at the back of the pack in the car they presented for inspection! If they missed the set up, put in a screwed-up engine, didn't read their notes right, etc., etc. C'est la vie. Ain't cheating and life a *****?

Think a penalty such as that might make ANY team think twice before cheating?

let me see if I correctly understand what you propose.

upon arrival at the track (or shortly thereafter) the car would be presented for inspection. pass and proceed to the playground. fail and one chance at making it right - max time for this effort is very short: an hour or so. upon 2nd failure, offending vehicle is confiscated and team placed in "timeout". now team has two options, go home or roll out back up car which must pass on the first try (I'd hope the offender's place in line would automatically be last at this point, no matter their standing in owner's points.)

"timeout" entails the offending party or parties being fined and benched for a pre-determined time based on the offense. at the end of the penalty period their first appearance must be in a now legal (hopefully) vehicle.

there's a muddy area here: obviously they cannot present a confiscated vehicle for inspection, so either the passed backup or a brand new "contender" would have to receive the inspector's scrutiny. what happens to the passed backup during "timeout"? does NASCAR quarantine it to ensure no "funny stuff" happens back at the shop? (that'd be my choice.)

now the quandry: what to do if the backup fails. do you sentence the offender(s) to consecutive "timeouts"? what about the offending backup? is it also confiscated and at the next appearance a backup for the backup rolled out and into the inspection line (at the end, of course)?

I think that would work. I know, if I were crew chief, I'd make sure my backup had no "gray areas" and was so squeaky-clean it'd dazzle the inspectors and be nominated as "car of the year" for it's strict adherence to the rules. but then I'm a basically honest guy and not given to life on the edge...

[Bob Tanner]

Originally Posted by Racer Duck

let me see if I correctly understand what you propose.

upon arrival at the track (or shortly thereafter) the car would be presented for inspection. pass and proceed to the playground. fail and one chance at making it right - max time for this effort is very short: an hour or so. upon 2nd failure, offending vehicle is confiscated and team placed in "timeout". now team has two options, go home or roll out back up car which must pass on the first try (I'd hope the offender's place in line would automatically be last at this point, no matter their standing in owner's points.)

"timeout" entails the offending party or parties being fined and benched for a pre-determined time based on the offense. at the end of the penalty period their first appearance must be in a now legal (hopefully) vehicle.

there's a muddy area here: obviously they cannot present a confiscated vehicle for inspection, so either the passed backup or a brand new "contender" would have to receive the inspector's scrutiny. what happens to the passed backup during "timeout"? does NASCAR quarantine it to ensure no "funny stuff" happens back at the shop? (that'd be my choice.)

now the quandry: what to do if the backup fails. do you sentence the offender(s) to consecutive "timeouts"? what about the offending backup? is it also confiscated and at the next appearance a backup for the backup rolled out and into the inspection line (at the end, of course)?

I think that would work. I know, if I were crew chief, I'd make sure my backup had no "gray areas" and was so squeaky-clean it'd dazzle the inspectors and be nominated as "car of the year" for it's strict adherence to the rules. but then I'm a basically honest guy and not given to life on the edge...

No "time out" (I dislike that term Gosh, I wish they had invented "time outs" when I was a kid. I'd taken a "time out " over an ass-beating any day).

Fuel cell, safety and COT body cheating gets the offending car taken, plus the usual fines and point deductions. As you point out, the back up had better be squeaky clean or it goes home. Then in a pre-determined number of following races, the teams don't get practice time nor the chance to qualify. The first time their car see the track is when it's pushed on the grid. If THAT car fails inspection the way the car that got taken did then...??? There is obviously a crew chief/team manager who is costing some team owner a lot of money and some sponsor a lot of negative publicity. Then I would sincerely hope, that matters take care of themselves.

That make it any clearer?