[LSC9901]

Originally Posted by McMurray26

it would be nice if they didn't always run on the same track but they wouldn't as many fans for the busch if they didn't run along cup events

The good thing is that more Busch series drivers would get the much needed experience for the cup series. Minor league baseball teams don't get 35000 fans either ... but wait. They are in the minors to gain experience. What a novel concept.

[King43STP]

Originally Posted by Souporscotty

IMSVHO, These races should be as GEOGRAPHICALY as far apart as possible. That might keep some of the 'Cup' drivers out of it and make it the 'Feeder' series that myself and some others think it should be.

Great idea but will not work unless NASCAR and the owners stop running Cup drivers in Cup Lite. This week is great 3 Cup drivers didn't make it for the start, 2 did.

[jks812]

Originally Posted by King43STP

Great idea but will not work unless NASCAR and the owners stop running Cup drivers in Cup Lite. This week is great 3 Cup drivers didn't make it for the start, 2 did.

I was enjoying it til the 20 car took that Aric kid out of the car so they could put Denny in. Aric got the pole and was doing good. Crew chief said they weren't taking him out and putting Denny in. Denny said to take him out would be disrespectful. I leave for a little bit, come back and they are putting Denny in the car.

[King43STP]

Originally Posted by jks812

I was enjoying it til the 20 car took that Aric kid out of the car so they could put Denny in. Aric got the pole and was doing good. Crew chief said they weren't taking him out and putting Denny in. Denny said to take him out would be disrespectful. I leave for a little bit, come back and they are putting Denny in the car.

Yeah! I saw that also. Seams Denny could not land soon enough to start the race. And what they said on ESPN2 was that Rockwell called this shot. But at least Denny doesn't get the points. To bad this couldn't happen to Carl.

[jks812]

Originally Posted by King43STP

Yeah! I saw that also. Seams Denny could not land soon enough to start the race. And what they said on ESPN2 was that Rockwell called this shot. But at least Denny doesn't get the points. To bad this couldn't happen to Carl.

I heard them talking about it later on. I didn't understand at the time what had happened. I think it was low down of Rockwell to do that.

[Racer Duck]

Originally Posted by jks812

I heard them talking about it later on. I didn't understand at the time what had happened. I think it was low down of Rockwell to do that.

not saying what they did was right or wrong, but look at it from their point of view:

• Milwaukee is Rockwell International's headquarters.
• This is the only time the Busch cars will race in Milwaukee this year.
• They are the primary sponsor for the #20 car with Denny Hamlin as the contracted driver.
• They have, maybe several hundred or more employees and guests at the races Saturday to see "their" car and "their" driver compete.
• Aric was substituting for Denny while he was unavailable.
• Denny was available and was just standing around doing nothing when the order came down.

basically they had laid out hundreds of thousands of dollars just for this one race, and they wanted to see in person what their bucks were paying for. they didn't want a substitute no matter how good he may have been. they wanted what they paid for.

for that you're giving them the raspberry....

[King43STP]

Originally Posted by Racer Duck

not saying what they did was right or wrong, but look at it from their point of view:

• Milwaukee is Rockwell International's headquarters.
• This is the only time the Busch cars will race in Milwaukee this year.
• They are the primary sponsor for the #20 car with Denny Hamlin as the contracted driver.
• They have, maybe several hundred or more employees and guests at the races Saturday to see "their" car and "their" driver compete.
• Aric was substituting for Denny while he was unavailable.
• Denny was available and was just standing around doing nothing when the order came down.

basically they had laid out hundreds of thousands of dollars just for this one race, and they wanted to see in person what their bucks were paying for. they didn't want a substitute no matter how good he may have been. they wanted what they paid for.

for that you're giving them the raspberry....

So what are you saying Duck, is that if a company decides to sponsor a car and their driver is unavailable they can do what? I thought the company should have been happy just to get their car in the race. Maybe NASCAR should make a rule about substitute drivers qualifying. That would have been great for Rockwell since Denny, their driver was at Infineon with his cup car, and couldn't get to Milwaukee to qualify their car. Substitute drivers have been a part of the sport for as long as I can recall, almost 50 years. This is the reason I don't like Cup and Busch GN's running on the same tracks. Split them up, Limit the amount of times a Cup driver can enter a Busch GN race, Limit the amount of points and purse they can win. I think that would then make these Cup drivers the substitute drivers. After all this is the series that is supposed to feed drivers into Cup, not be Cup Lite.

[jks812]

Well maybe they should consider sponsoring a Busch driver in the Busch races instead of a Cup driver. Then they wouldn't have to worry about him being late for the race because he's umpteen miles away with his cup team. Or maybe if they want a cup driver they should get off the money and sponsor a cup team.

[Racer Duck]

lets go over this again .. I know you got it, but I'm not sure I'm getting my point across.

Rockwell International is not "every sponsor" .. how they act should not be construed to be representative of any other sponsor's actions. the events we're discussing here are specific to Rockwell International and the #20 team at Milwaukee this year. do not generalize this incident - it came about because of specific business circumstances.

Rockwell has been the primary sponsor of the #20 Busch car for Joe Gibbs Racing for at least the past 2 years. During that time, the primary driver of that car was Denny Hamlin. Because of JGR's organizational skills, the #20 team's technical skills and Denny's driving skills, they have fielded a successful car for both of those years. Also during that time Denny was a full time Cup driver with primary responsibilities to the #11 Cup car/team/sponsors. As such, there were times when Denny was not available to drive the #20, so a substitute was hired to drive it.

in this instance, Denny wasn't available to qualify the car nor to start the race, Aric was hired as a substitute. Denny was able to be in attendance shortly after the race started, i.e,. he became available, and the team began making preparations to put Denny into the car, but Denny nixed the idea. in essence, Denny was giving Aric, the substitute, a "carrot."

however, the sponsor did not want the substitute if Denny was available and made their wishes known. they overruled Denny as was their legal right. yes, they were happy the substitute practiced the car, qualified it on the pole and was running in the top 10 at the time. but, in their eyes the best driver was not in the car, the primary driver, and that's what they wanted: the team's best, the full "A" team, if you will. and, remember, this was, perhaps, the most important race of the year for the sponsor because it was the only race this year in the sponsor's hometown. If you've never been involved on the business side of a public corporate event such as this, you cannot know the immense pressure placed on every individual in the corporate chain to make this event a stunning success. I cannot stress this enough. it can be brutal, but it is the way of business.

I don't know what the outcome would have been had Denny not taken over, no one does. at another track, for another race, Aric would have probably been allowed to finish the race and eveyone would have a warm glow.

but this was business. and business rules state you put the best resources on the job. because of everyone's efforts, the #20 won the race. because of NASCAR's rules, the driver in the seat at the start of the race gets the driver points and the final position credits.

now ask yourself, if Denny had not nixed the original driver change, would any of this be so important now? remember, Aric was prepared to give up the seat to Denny. Denny made a nice gesture, but the business overruled his gesture. so make no mistake here: this is a business and the wants and needs of the business are paramount. you don't have to like it, I don't have to like it, but that's the way it is.

[Racer Duck]

Originally Posted by King43STP

So what are you saying Duck, is that if a company decides to sponsor a car and their driver is unavailable they can do what? I thought the company should have been happy just to get their car in the race. Maybe NASCAR should make a rule about substitute drivers qualifying. That would have been great for Rockwell since Denny, their driver was at Infineon with his cup car, and couldn't get to Milwaukee to qualify their car. Substitute drivers have been a part of the sport for as long as I can recall, almost 50 years. This is the reason I don't like Cup and Busch GN's running on the same tracks. Split them up, Limit the amount of times a Cup driver can enter a Busch GN race, Limit the amount of points and purse they can win. I think that would then make these Cup drivers the substitute drivers. After all this is the series that is supposed to feed drivers into Cup, not be Cup Lite.

a grand idea. legally it won't work.

according to NASCAR's own rules, there is a tier system for licenses. a licensee can participate/compete in any tier below their current license tier. a lower tier licensee is not permitted to participate/compete in a higher tier than their current license. simple, straightforward, and the basis of many, many business decisions throughout the sport.

we've discussed this on another thread earlier this year. about the only way NASCAR can affect this is by putting restrictions on the team owners. for instance they can limit the total number of teams an owner can have in any of the 3 top series, or the total in any 2 or 3 series. but, unfortunately, they cannot limit the number times a driver can "step-down" because by their own rules that driver is qualified to participate. to do so would open themselves up to lawsuits for conspiring to deny a driver's right to work.

it's their hole and they dug it.

hopefully in 2008, when the COT is the only car you can run in Cup, there'll be less "Buschwacking" 'cause the differences between the two series will be too great to justify the investment for "research" purposes.

[King43STP]

Personally I don't give a hoot about Rockwell and what they did. I don't like it, I thought it smelled. But this thread is about Cup and Busch running different tracks. But the problem I see is that Busch is being dominated by Cup people. Isn't it supposed to feed the Cup teams? I remember a day, not to very long ago, when you had 1 maybe 3 Cup drivers in any one race. Now except for a couple of races you have half or more Cup drivers competing. Now fair or not I has out served it's purpose as a training ground for up and coming Cup drivers. Maybe Tony Stewart was right in comparing NASCAR to WWF. As I was told once by a friend, NASCAR wasn't filling the track seats at Busch races. So they came up with a grand idea to get some of the fan favorite Cup drivers to fill-in for Busch drivers. Seats started to fill, money started rolling in, and all was right in the NASCAR world. Did they contemplate what would happen over time? Cup drivers that raced in Busch would come back to Cup with their notes, and start changing set-ups on the Cup car, then taking their car to Victory Lane. It didn't take long for other Cup teams and drivers to pay attention, and start running these races, after all, an advantage is an advantage whether fair or not. When NASCAR opened this Pandora's box, it has led to more sponsorship money for the well healed Busch teams, AKA Cup teams running Busch. It has also led to higher purse money. People that attend Busch races don't come to these races to see Ambrose, Huffman, McClure, or Wood win. They come to see Edwards, Harvick. Hamlin, and the rest of the Cup guys win. Busch is supposed to be the feeder series, not the practice race series for Cup.

[Racer Duck]

as I said, hopefully the COT will knock out lots of the Buschwacking in 2008.

but don't look to NA$CAR to do something that'll mean fewer dollars in their wallet.

the only question remaining, in my opinion, is what will happen to the Busch series when Busch leaves as they've announced.

[King43STP]

Originally Posted by Racer Duck

as I said, hopefully the COT will knock out lots of the Buschwacking in 2008.

but don't look to NA$CAR to do something that'll mean fewer dollars in their wallet.

the only question remaining, in my opinion, is what will happen to the Busch series when Busch leaves as they've announced.

Nothing much, Just change names, no change to anything else. But I did like the idea of it being renamed the KFC series. To bad they pulled out.

[jks812]

Originally Posted by Racer Duck

as I said, hopefully the COT will knock out lots of the Buschwacking in 2008.

but don't look to NA$CAR to do something that'll mean fewer dollars in their wallet.

the only question remaining, in my opinion, is what will happen to the Busch series when Busch leaves as they've announced.

I hope running the COT does stop alot of the cup drivers from running busch. I know Jeff Burton said he would have no reason to run busch then, cause it won't help with the cup car. Let's hope at least 20 more of em feel that way.
I think when Busch leaves that series will do like cup did, get another sponsor and go on.