[LSC9901]

Originally Posted by PenelopePitStop

I know, I know ... you're stuck on stats. That's fine. And, yes, Jeff "lurks" in the top 10 or 5, then strikes. Here again I question the term "better". Sr. had an intuition that Gordon will never possess. Sr. and his car were one.

I hate this topic!

No need to hate it Penny. Embrace it along with your thoughts and opinions. Those things are that justify your reasons for following/supporting certain drivers/teams. There is no reason to get in a fritz over this thread. State your opinion loud and proud. If you are a stats person, by all means kick some numbers in. If you reason with emotion then by all means give us your heartfelt observations. If you can't stand it at all then become an innocent bystander.

I'm not a great follower of Jeff but I find him to be an overall good driver STATISICALLY. Sr was a great driver emotionally and physically, even though I did not like his style of driving at all. You will be amazed on how many minds can be changed with stats ... right Mike ??

The issue with stats presents another whole problem. If I want to convince you that driver "X" is better than driver "Y" I need only work the stats in my favor. While I'm a believer of stats I caution anyone to always, always examine someone elses stats before you accept them for gospel truth. Years ago someone told me that Figures lie and liars figure !!!

[clutch]

Wow, there are a few of you who think that only Earnhardt could take a piece of crap car and win a race. I couldnt count the races that Jeff's car has been a work in progress with improving adjustments made pitstop after pitstop. He really is a master at knowing the right adjustments needed to dial his car in. And then communicating this to his CC.

I respect both of these Great Drivers but will always remember an interview with Kenny Shrader after Earnhardt did a bump and run on him and the reporter told Shrader that Earnhardt had apologised about the incident.........."Yeah, thats what he said last time he wrecked me" was Kenny's comment.
I know that was the heat of the moment and they were great friends

[LSC9901]

Oh yeah ..... I love topics such as this. It makes the mind work and as long as it doesn't turn into a peeing match there can be a lot of great info presented.

[Mike24]

Originally Posted by clutch

Wow, there are a few of you who think that only Earnhardt could take a piece of crap car and win a race. I couldnt count the races that Jeff's car has been a work in progress with improving adjustments made pitstop after pitstop. He really is a master at knowing the right adjustments needed to dial his car in. And then communicating this to his CC.

I respect both of these Great Drivers but will always remember an interview with Kenny Shrader after Earnhardt did a bump and run on him and the reporter told Shrader that Earnhardt had apologised about the incident.........."Yeah, thats what he said last time he wrecked me" was Kenny's comment.
I know that was the heat of the moment and they were great friends

Agreed. Jeff has constantly taken bad cars, and took them to the front. I think some of the Sr fans are just so stuck on Sr, they don't realize there are a few other drivers out there who could do the same thing; take a junk car, make it better, and drive it to the front. But that's my opinion.

[Mike24]

Originally Posted by LSC9901

No need to hate it Penny. Embrace it along with your thoughts and opinions. Those things are that justify your reasons for following/supporting certain drivers/teams. There is no reason to get in a fritz over this thread. State your opinion loud and proud. If you are a stats person, by all means kick some numbers in. If you reason with emotion then by all means give us your heartfelt observations. If you can't stand it at all then become an innocent bystander.

I'm not a great follower of Jeff but I find him to be an overall good driver STATISICALLY. Sr was a great driver emotionally and physically, even though I did not like his style of driving at all. You will be amazed on how many minds can be changed with stats ... right Mike ??

The issue with stats presents another whole problem. If I want to convince you that driver "X" is better than driver "Y" I need only work the stats in my favor. While I'm a believer of stats I caution anyone to always, always examine someone elses stats before you accept them for gospel truth. Years ago someone told me that Figures lie and liars figure !!!

Right!!!

[PenelopePitStop]

Originally Posted by LSC9901

No need to hate it Penny. Embrace it along with your thoughts and opinions. Those things are that justify your reasons for following/supporting certain drivers/teams. There is no reason to get in a fritz over this thread. State your opinion loud and proud. If you are a stats person, by all means kick some numbers in. If you reason with emotion then by all means give us your heartfelt observations. If you can't stand it at all then become an innocent bystander.

I'm not a great follower of Jeff but I find him to be an overall good driver STATISICALLY. Sr was a great driver emotionally and physically, even though I did not like his style of driving at all. You will be amazed on how many minds can be changed with stats ... right Mike ??

The issue with stats presents another whole problem. If I want to convince you that driver "X" is better than driver "Y" I need only work the stats in my favor. While I'm a believer of stats I caution anyone to always, always examine someone elses stats before you accept them for gospel truth. Years ago someone told me that Figures lie and liars figure !!!

I'm not in a "fritz", LSC. My week wouldn't be complete without a healthy banter with Mike regarding Gordon! I'm used to him.

Nobody, nobody can argue Gordon's stats. But does that make him the "best"? ... not in my humble opinion. In fact, I enjoy watching Stewart far more than Gordon. I know he's on everyone's sh*tlist right now, but I like him. Or Mark Martin. He's fun to watch as well.

Me? An innocent bystander? Not gonna happen! I truly believe we are comparing apples and oranges here. I wish I could flash back to the mid 80s when I first started following Cup so I could again enjoy the sport without all this hullaballoo!

[PenelopePitStop]

Originally Posted by Mike24

Agreed. Jeff has constantly taken bad cars, and took them to the front. I think some of the Sr fans are just so stuck on Sr, they don't realize there are a few other drivers out there who could do the same thing; take a junk car, make it better, and drive it to the front. But that's my opinion.

No, no. That's not was I was talking about!

Sr. would have a junk car the ENTIRE race, and would still finish well. That's completely different than making improvements throughout the race. Any driver can do that!

And no, I'm not "stuck" on Sr. I just give credit where credit is due. Including to Gordon.

[jks812]

Ok this has nothing to do with Gordon and Sr, so if you need to, feel free to delete it.
This is a good example to me of comparing drivers with stats.
Johnson and Gordon, from 2001-2007.
Gordon Johnson
Wins 26 27
Top 5's 93 74
Top 10's 131 118
Poles 28 9
Toal Races 227 194

To me thats 2 good drivers to compare. Get them from the same team or era at least. They both have about the same driving style, just Johnson is more aggresive. They are both good drivers. Who could say who's best of those 2 if Johnson had same number of races.

[titans#1]

i picked goron simply bcuz he's better.sr has raced for almost 2x more than gordon and gordon already has more wins and before he retires im predicting gordon will have his number in championships as well.

[Racer Duck]

Originally Posted by PenelopePitStop

Sr. would have a junk car the ENTIRE race, and would still finish well. That's completely different than making improvements throughout the race. Any driver can do that!

Sorry Penny. Skills being equal, the better driver is the one who can communicate with his crew in such a way that the team makes the car better by the end of the race. If, as you claim, Sr.'s car was still junk at the end, then he didn't have the skill necessary to help his team improve it or he chose not to use it (but I can't imagine why not.). If on the other hand, Sr. always drove junk because that's what he enjoyed, then he deserves kudos for his accomplishments with junk.. But it doesn't necessarily make him better than Gordon who everyone claims never had junk.

No matter how it happens, a driver's success, not skill, is measured by his results. This discussion is centering around the difference between results and skills as the measurement of "best." The only valid comparison is when they raced head-to-head with equipment from the same era and rules. I think the results show Gordon better at that time than Sr. I don't know of any test during this time that measured skills, so without data this area has to be a tie until proven differently.

It seems to be a matter of personal preference .. like blonds vs brunets...

But there's other ways to look at this ... I know many people are...

[LSC9901]

Originally Posted by Racer Duck

Sorry Penny. Skills being equal, the better driver is the one who can communicate with his crew in such a way that the team makes the car better by the end of the race. If, as you claim, Sr.'s car was still junk at the end, then he didn't have the skill necessary to help his team improve it or he chose not to use it (but I can't imagine why not.). If on the other hand, Sr. always drove junk because that's what he enjoyed, then he deserves kudos for his accomplishments with junk.. But it doesn't necessarily make him better than Gordon who everyone claims never had junk.

No matter how it happens, a driver's success, not skill, is measured by his results. This discussion is centering around the difference between results and skills as the measurement of "best." The only valid comparison is when they raced head-to-head with equipment from the same era and rules. I think the results show Gordon better at that time than Sr. I don't know of any test during this time that measured skills, so without data this area has to be a tie until proven differently.

It seems to be a matter of personal preference .. like blonds vs brunets...

But there's other ways to look at this ... I know many people are...

I tend to agree that there is no actual, material, physical test that measures skills but .... I think that what you said earlier in your post would fill in as an acceptable substitute. That would be results. If a driver can convey to the team the necessary changes then the driver has the skill to get that done. Hopefully the team has the same skill to hear the message and turn it into positive results. Now if you can drive a junker from green flag to the checkered flag and win or do well, then there must be a certain amount of skill to accomplish that feat.

Skill, results, best, greatest ... all a matter of perception unless you want to compare like stats.

[Souporscotty]

I can't believe this thread hasn't come to blows. I'm proud of y'all!

[Racer Duck]

Originally Posted by Souporscotty

I can't believe this thread hasn't come to blows. I'm proud of y'all!

Thank You for noticing.

There's 2 things in this world I can't tolerate: stupidity and disrespect. I've found neither at GTG .. which makes me a happy addict to the NASCAR forum 'cause I love the spirited "discussions" and various points of view

[Racer Duck]

Originally Posted by LSC9901

if you can drive a junker from green flag to the checkered flag and win or do well, then there must be a certain amount of skill to accomplish that feat.

Agreed, but... being able to do it doesn't necessarily mean you have more skill than another driver who has never had to do it - only that you've demonstrated you have that level of skill. That's why we'll never know which of the two subjects of this thread was/is most skillful - there's no head-to-head skill competition results that we know of that will tell us one way or the other. The only thing we have is accomplishments: total for one and ongoing for the other.

[Mike24]

The bottom line is, stats are stats. Both drivers were great, but the stats show Jeff Gordon is better. With that being said, Gordon gets my vote.