[Bob Tanner]

Originally Posted by Mike24

Here we go again... NASCAR rigs races, this and that.

NASCAR does NOT rig races. There is NO WAY you can rig racing. If you can, I will give you 1 million bucks, because there ISN'T any way. It gives me a great laugh when some people try to come up with ways though.

If you don't mind a reply to your post from a person who shouldn't be following this new NASCAR...

I agree with Mike in that I don't believe NA$CAR "fixes" or "rigs" the race outcome insofar as to who wins. As inept as NASCAR has a propensity to prove itself of being, I feel that though the NASCAR body has some teams who it prefers over others, it has the good sense keep its hands off the finishing order.

However, I believe, down to the depths of my aged, corporate sponsorship-playoff- and lucky dog-hating soul, that NA$CAR uses its rules and caution flags to manipulate races so that finishes are artificially closer and more cars finish on the lead lap.

[Mike24]

Originally Posted by Bob Tanner

If you don't mind a reply to your post from a person who shouldn't be following this new NASCAR...

I agree with Mike in that I don't believe NA$CAR "fixes" or "rigs" the race outcome insofar as to who wins. As inept as NASCAR has a propensity to prove itself of being, I feel that though the NASCAR body has some teams who it prefers over others, it has the good sense keep its hands off the finishing order.

However, I believe, down to the depths of my aged, corporate sponsorship-playoff- and lucky dog-hating soul, that NA$CAR uses its rules and caution flags to manipulate races so that finishes are artificially closer and more cars finish on the lead lap.

Now now Bob, I never said you shouldn't be following this new NASCAR. I was just saying something about the new NASCAR we need to realize.

NASCAR does not rig races for drivers to win. However, I do have a feeling NASCAR does manipulate caution flags for exciting finishes, not saying they do that, but it's quite interesting, because stats prove debris cautions have really shot up. But, I believe you can't rig a race for a driver to win. It's impossible.

[LSC9901]

Originally Posted by Mike24
This is just a fact of showing who can accept change or who can't accept change. NASCAR is not for you fans who have watched it in the 70's and 80's. We are in 2007, not in the 70's, 80's, or 90's. As long as it looks like a car and races like a car, I will accept it.

Opps ... Maybe you did say it Mike !!!!

[Phils20]

Originally Posted by Racer X

Sorry about the letter size, underlining and Caps. To make sure that I don't misspell anything, I have been writing my posts in Word and then pasting them into the web site. I have not been paying attention to the font size... As far as underlining and caps, I did that to emphasize a point. I did not mean anything by it. I will try to refrain from doing this in the future. Please accept my apologies.

As for your reply, I will show a little of my ignorance. But who sits in the “tower” and makes the calls during the race? I believe that Mike Helton may watch from there, but I am not sure. And if he does, does he have the final say if a caution is thrown? Maybe an independent group of officials might help alleviate all the conspiracy discussions, but they would have to be compensated by NASCAR. So there again, they would not be truly “independent”and above reproach. In either case, you make a good suggestion.

Cool, apologies if I came off as too abrupt! Glad to have you aboard. This is a great place for race talk! I think we all get a bit wound up at times, myself included! I hope to see you posting often, and don't give it another thought.

[Phils20]

Originally Posted by Bob Tanner

Thanks for the original post, Phil. David is one of four motorsports writers I read religiously (Monte Dutton, Matt McLaughlin and Robin Miller being the other three). The subject of debris cautions are subjects both David and Matt have discussed for the past two years. (Long before Stewart opened his mouth on the matter)

I have a bias on this matter so I won't comment on the article. However, I do have a couple of short question...

Have you, or anyone here noticed that since Stewart's accusation after Phoenix, the number of debris cautions have decreased? It has always been standard practice that WHENEVER a car hits the fence or blows an engine, the yellow automatically comes out. Sunday, at Darlington, every car but the pace car bounced off the wall at one time or another (most multiple times). At least two cars blew engines (Stremme and Blaney) yet no yellow flag?

NASCAR is getting better with its rule enforcement <crossed fingers> but it has a ways to go with its caution flags.

WE have very similar tastes in writers! I had lost Matt for a bit, until someone posted the new site he writes on! Monte Dutton and Robin Miller are both writers I hate to miss! I love Robin on Wind Tunnel! That is always a blast!

[Phils20]

And yes, Bob, it does seem they have slowed a bit, I'm sure someone will have the stats!

[Mike24]

Originally Posted by LSC9901

Originally Posted by Mike24
This is just a fact of showing who can accept change or who can't accept change. NASCAR is not for you fans who have watched it in the 70's and 80's. We are in 2007, not in the 70's, 80's, or 90's. As long as it looks like a car and races like a car, I will accept it.

Opps ... Maybe you did say it Mike !!!!

I did say it's NOT for those fans, but they still have a choice to watch it or not.

ANYWAYS, back to our original discussion.

[Bob Tanner]

Originally Posted by Racer X

As for your reply, I will show a little of my ignorance. But who sits in the “tower” and makes the calls during the race? I believe that Mike Helton may watch from there, but I am not sure. And if he does, does he have the final say if a caution is thrown? Maybe an independent group of officials might help alleviate all the conspiracy discussions, but they would have to be compensated by NASCAR. So there again, they would not be truly “independent”and above reproach. In either case, you make a good suggestion.

I have never sat in the tower, Racer. However, back in February David Poole reported on this very topic, on SIRRUS radio's Morning Show. He has been in the tower and reported that but Mike Helton and John Darby (Dir of Competition) both are there during the race. He said it is common to see team owners, sponsor representatives, track owners and other "celebrities," also.

David stated that once he was talking to Humpy Wheeler about an event happening during a Charlotte race. He didn't give the specific details, but he said Humpy laughed and was quoted as saying, "I was in the tower and I was lobbying John Darby like the devil to not throw the yellow flag, but he did anyway."

Poll, like you, has suggested an independent officiating body to officiate the races, as some professional sports have. At first I agreed but, as someone here pointed out, independent bodies can also "be bought." Possibly the only thing such a change would accomplish would be for NASCAR to hand off its rightful duties to a third party. It would be better served to remain as it is but make a concerted effort to instill credibility.

[Phils20]

Originally Posted by Bob Tanner

Poll, like you, has suggested an independent officiating body to officiate the races, as some professional sports have. At first I agreed but, as someone here pointed out, independent bodies can also "be bought." Possibly the only thing such a change would accomplish would be for NASCAR to hand off its rightful duties to a third party. It would be better served to remain as it is but make a concerted effort to instill credibility.

Something to think about. I do feel we need some change, and NASCAR has done a good job of growing the sport. Like most things, I think we will see a lot of change over the next 10 years or so, some bad, but most good, just as it has been.

[Souporscotty]

Originally Posted by Bob Tanner

but make a concerted effort to instill credibility.

That's it in a nut shell. NA$CAR needs consistancy, not parity, and stop pretending that the fans are stupid.

[Bob Tanner]

Originally Posted by Phils20

WE have very similar tastes in writers! I had lost Matt for a bit, until someone posted the new site he writes on! Monte Dutton and Robin Miller are both writers I hate to miss! I love Robin on Wind Tunnel! That is always a blast!

I have a new one for you, then. John Daley of The Daley Planet. here is an example of one he wrote this morning, IRT NASCAR on Fox in general, and Mikey and his mouth in particular.
The Daly Planet: Only One Truck Finished At Charlotte...Right?

[Phils20]

Originally Posted by Bob Tanner

If you don't mind a reply to your post from a person who shouldn't be following this new NASCAR...

I agree with Mike in that I don't believe NA$CAR "fixes" or "rigs" the race outcome insofar as to who wins. As inept as NASCAR has a propensity to prove itself of being, I feel that though the NASCAR body has some teams who it prefers over others, it has the good sense keep its hands off the finishing order.

However, I believe, down to the depths of my aged, corporate sponsorship-playoff- and lucky dog-hating soul, that NA$CAR uses its rules and caution flags to manipulate races so that finishes are artificially closer and more cars finish on the lead lap.

And so do I. Which was the basis For Tony Stewarts poorly stated, but ut all too true, tirade a couple of weeks ago. Like you Bob, I've been watching a long time, I was just checking out my program the other day from Dove in 1978.

BAck then it was the "Mason Dixon 500". May 21, 1978. It was only 3 bucks! I don't think anybody wants the days back when you only had one car left on the lead lap, or when it seemed if ya didn't like who was winning, just wait, the motor would blow.

What we do want is for at least, at the very least, that the rules are fair, and that the Governing body is running a race, not a show. Throwing flags for the purpose of having a better finish is a joke.

For a bit, I fel into the trap of liking the red flag, used to make sure races didn't finish under caution. I even think that should stop. Run the advertised race, plus a GWC if you can fir that in, and be done with it.

Anyway, I like the passion this brings out in folks! I hope we have a good all star race tonite, I'll be at the Phils Game, but I'll be watching when I get home.

I'll need to stay away from this site until I see it all!

[LSC9901]

Originally Posted by Bob Tanner

I have a new one for you, then. John Daley of The Daley Planet. here is an example of one he wrote this morning, IRT NASCAR on Fox in general, and Mikey and his mouth in particular.
The Daly Planet: Only One Truck Finished At Charlotte...Right?

Great info. I've bookmarked this one. I cannot think of anything good I can say about either of the Waltrips. What they do in the booth shouldn't even be done as a SNL skit.

[Bob Tanner]

Originally Posted by Phils20

And so do I. Which was the basis For Tony Stewarts poorly stated, but ut all too true, tirade a couple of weeks ago. Like you Bob, I've been watching a long time, I was just checking out my program the other day from Dove in 1978.

!

I have sadly come to the conclusion that being a long-time sports fan can be more of a detriment than a benefit. Over the past three or four decades all major sports have cheapened themselves and have become entertainment events rather than sporting events.

There is now an entire generation which doesn't have the memories of what all professional sports used to be. They have no frame of reference to compare today's product to that of yesterday. They just have today and honestly believe that this is the way things should be. Since they have no memory past a few years they automatically thing today's sporting product is far superior to anything in the past. The end product is, sadly, that they embrace the belief that we should just shut the Hell up and admit today's sports is as good as it gets and if we won't shut up, then just go away (and let them wallow in their beliefs?).

But then I have a jaded opinion. I grew up when the Dodgers were still in Brooklyn, the Giants still played in the Polo Grounds, and the Los Angeles Angles were in the PCL. When the Royals were in Cincinnati and George Mikan just retired from Minneapolis, when the Cardinals were still in Chicago and not Phoenix. When every goalie feared seeing Maurice "Rocket" Richard coming down the ice at him.

But then I imagine the people who remember the Black Sox Scandal said the same thing about our generation.

[Racer Duck]

memories, memories...