[Racer X]

Originally Posted by Phils20

I don't think is a conspiracy either. But I would call it almost incompetence, as opposed to inconsitancy.

This is the only Major sport where the owners of the sport also own the tracks, and also make most of big calls. Such as when to throw a flag.

It's time to get an outside agency to enforce the rules they have written.

NASCAR is way too involved. As I said, they own a lot of the tracks, the governing body, make the officiateig calls, dole out punishment. It just feeds into those who think things are fixed. Never said I was one of them.

Oh, and cold you please tone down the writing size. We are all smart enough to understand you without the larger letters. It comes off as a bit condenseding, in my opinion. If I'm out of line, moderators can feel free to let me know. I don't mean any offense, but my first reaction to that is the same as it would be to a post in all caps.

I stressed at the beginning I wanted this to be civil, and since I started the post, I'm gonna ask agian. No underlining, no all caps, large letters, just a fun exercise. I'm thinking a change in title may be in order to keep folks from getting fired up.

Sorry about the letter size, underlining and Caps. To make sure that I don't misspell anything, I have been writing my posts in Word and then pasting them into the web site. I have not been paying attention to the font size... As far as underlining and caps, I did that to emphasize a point. I did not mean anything by it. I will try to refrain from doing this in the future. Please accept my apologies.

As for your reply, I will show a little of my ignorance. But who sits in the “tower” and makes the calls during the race? I believe that Mike Helton may watch from there, but I am not sure. And if he does, does he have the final say if a caution is thrown? Maybe an independent group of officials might help alleviate all the conspiracy discussions, but they would have to be compensated by NASCAR. So there again, they would not be truly “independent”and above reproach. In either case, you make a good suggestion.

[jks812]

Originally Posted by Phils20

It's time to get an outside agency to enforce the rules they have written.

They have written rules?lol...You really wouldn't think they did the way they do things. One driver does this and gets penalized, another driver does it and don't get a penalty. But I agree they should bring in an independent agency to handle that part of it, because they sure don't seem able to handle it.

[jks812]

Originally Posted by Racer X

Maybe an independent group of officials might help alleviate all the conspiracy discussions, but they would have to be compensated by NASCAR. So there again, they would not be truly “independent”and above reproach. In either case, you make a good suggestion.

Maybe they wouldn't have to be compensated by Nascar. Maybe they could charge each team the same amount of fee and pay them with that.

[Racer X]

JKS, that is a good idea! NASCAR could position it as saying, "Alright. You guys don't like the officiating? Then you hire your race officials." The teams would have nothing to complain about... Except the fact that the new officials are costing them money.

[LSC9901]

Originally Posted by Racer X

JKS, that is a good idea! NASCAR could position it as saying, "Alright. You guys don't like the officiating? Then you hire your race officials." The teams would have nothing to complain about... Except the fact that the new officials are costing them money.

Not sure I like the sound of that. Chad Knaus hiring the people to inspect his cars ????? Nope ... it just doesn't sound like a good idea.

In theory NASCAR is the administrative arm of NASCAR racing and therefore should be the ones hiring the officials to impose and protect the rules. Like in any sport if there is a problem with an official I'm sure there is an avenue to follow where by you can file a complaint or protest and then let the system take its course. Having the teams hire the officials would result in more fear of cheating and lying.

[jks812]

I didn't mean let the teams hire them, just pay them. Let Nascar get the officials and charge each team a set fee, which will pay them. At least that way,who could anybody say they were partial too? They are being paid by all the teams. Okay in reality that wouldn't work, but sure would be nice if it would.

[Mike24]

Here we go again... NASCAR rigs races, this and that.

NASCAR does NOT rig races. There is NO WAY you can rig racing. If you can, I will give you 1 million bucks, because there ISN'T any way. It gives me a great laugh when some people try to come up with ways though.

[LSC9901]

Originally Posted by Mike24

Here we go again... NASCAR rigs races, this and that.

NASCAR does NOT rig races. There is NO WAY you can rig racing. If you can, I will give you 1 million bucks, because there ISN'T any way. It gives me a great laugh when some people try to come up with ways though.

I gotta believe that the teams are already paying the officials now. I'm sure there is some small fee paid to NASCAR by each team !!!!!

[jks812]

I'm not saying they rig races. But with the cautions for nothing or no cautions when there is something, they can and sometimes do change the outcome of the race.

[Mike24]

Originally Posted by jks812

I'm not saying they rig races. But with the cautions for nothing or no cautions when there is something, they can and sometimes do change the outcome of the race.

ok, when someone cuts a tire and goes into the wall hard causing injury, we will see our opinions about NASCAR calling the cautions for debris and oil, I think they will change dramatically.

[jks812]

Originally Posted by Mike24

ok, when someone cuts a tire and goes into the wall hard causing injury, we will see our opinions about NASCAR calling the cautions for debris and oil, I think they will change dramatically.

I'm all for calling the caution when it's there, I think they should. The 43 drivers safety is more important. How about Sunday when they didn't call. If Martin had cut a tire and hit the wall hard and was injured, would Nascar say,oops maybe we should have called one. Would the fans who agree with not calling one, had been saying instead, why didn't they call a caution?
I guess what I'm saying is, if there is debris call a caution. If there isn't, don't call one. And I don't care who's leading or going for the lead at the time.

[Mike24]

Originally Posted by jks812

I'm all for calling the caution when it's there, I think they should. The 43 drivers safety is more important. How about Sunday when they didn't call. If Martin had cut a tire and hit the wall hard and was injured, would Nascar say,oops maybe we should have called one. Would the fans who agree with not calling one, had been saying instead, why didn't they call a caution?
I guess what I'm saying is, if there is debris call a caution. If there isn't, don't call one. And I don't care who's leading or going for the lead at the time.

NASCAR is not perfect, no one is perfect. From what I've heard, NASCAR said the debris was off of the groove, and not in harm of the drivers. I don't know if there was any other debris on the track at the time. But we also have to remember NASCAR doesn't see the debris in one second, they have to take their time to see if there is any on the track.

[wardfan]

On the ask the experts thread I asked if the same NASCAR officials traveled from track to track or each had its own. The answer back to me was that most of the officials travel to each track. If that is the case you would think they would be more consistant in their calls on these cautions. If each track had there own officials for each race you could understand the inconsistant calls from week to week. But if its the same guys going from track to track you would think they could get their act together and seem to be more consistant.

[Racer Duck]

Originally Posted by wardfan

On the ask the experts thread I asked if the same NASCAR officials traveled from track to track or each had its own. The answer back to me was that most of the officials travel to each track. If that is the case you would think they would be more consistant in their calls on these cautions. If each track had there own officials for each race you could understand the inconsistant calls from week to week. But if its the same guys going from track to track you would think they could get their act together and seem to be more consistant.

Sorry if I misled you with my answer, wardfan. As you might guess, it takes many fewer officials to watch for debris on, say, Martinsville than at Talladega. At some tracks the teams radios won't work from end to the other, so that, potentially, creates a blind spot for officials reporting back to the tower. There are different officials for different duties. The folks who inspect the cars aren't necessarily on debris duty (or any other) during the race, or they might be watching that JJ's front tire changer gets all 5 lug nuts on each wheel. I'd almost bet the debris duty goes mostly to locally hired officials. But... not having been one nor knowing one I couldn't say for sure... I do know the officials who inspect the cars are the same ones at every track and the ones in each pit during the race are usually the same folks at every track.

[Bob Tanner]

Originally Posted by Phils20

I don't think it makes them whiners either, but I look forward to some of the comments once the morning rolls in! I hope this ends up being a fun post, and that my title to it doesn't get anyone too wound up! I just wanted it to stand out!

Thanks for the original post, Phil. David is one of four motorsports writers I read religiously (Monte Dutton, Matt McLaughlin and Robin Miller being the other three). The subject of debris cautions are subjects both David and Matt have discussed for the past two years. (Long before Stewart opened his mouth on the matter)

I have a bias on this matter so I won't comment on the article. However, I do have a couple of short question...

Have you, or anyone here noticed that since Stewart's accusation after Phoenix, the number of debris cautions have decreased? It has always been standard practice that WHENEVER a car hits the fence or blows an engine, the yellow automatically comes out. Sunday, at Darlington, every car but the pace car bounced off the wall at one time or another (most multiple times). At least two cars blew engines (Stremme and Blaney) yet no yellow flag?

NASCAR is getting better with its rule enforcement <crossed fingers> but it has a ways to go with its caution flags.