[Mike24]

Originally Posted by LSC9901

Either I don't understand what you are saying or you don't explain it well. You're saying that passion means you'll do whatever it takes to win. To me that includes crash & pass and it is done to often. To me if you are in second place and are not fast enough to drive by then you have a second place car ... period. Where do you draw the line between passion and poor driving?

Dale Sr. ... driver or racer ?? Not sure I follow that. By trade they are all drivers, by desire they should all be racers. I didn't say anything negative about him as a person, figure in NASCAR or anything else. I only stated that I didn't care for his style of driving. There is a lot about Stewart that I don't like. I do like his desire to be a winner. I do like his potential abilities but some of what he does I do not like.

LSC, that is called getting more out of the car. If I know I have a 2nd place car, I need to try and get more out of it. If I wreck it, then I wreck it. Dale Sr had the talent to get more out of the car. He didn't care what you all thought about his stlye, he was going to do whatever it took to get the job done. I wish more drivers have this style, but people care more about respecting other drivers than going out and driving, which is pretty sad to be honest.

If a driver does not have the skill nor the speed to pass an opponent cleanly using the unoccupied parts of the track, then "moving" that opponent is akin to cheating .. it certainly isn't sportsmanlike. whether it's the last lap or the first lap, it's all the same.

I applaud the drivers that take chances to win. I don't like drivers that block. And I disrespect any driver who relies on "moving" their competition out of the way in order to advance their position.

Crashes and wrecks happen when a driver is "moved" by his competition .. there are too many variables that the "moving" driver cannot control and that's the biggest problem other than sportsmanship. You can say you're sorry all you want, the fact still remains you caused the wreck because you didn't have enough faith in your car and your driving abilities to pass that opponent cleanly.

No offence, but that comment really embarrasses me to be a racing fan. If moving someone out of the way is cheating.... I won't go on.

I'm talking about for the win. I agree, if it's for 2nd and beyond, I don't think it's worth moving someone. But when it's for the win, it's worth doing whatever it takes, not just sitting there because you know you can't pass him.

Rubbin is racin. I'm going to use something Sr would say. If you don't like it, then too bad. But if you like the style of racing clean for the win, then that's cool. I could careless what everyone thought, I'm gonna do whatever I have to do to get a win, not care about what my competitors think about it. Dale Sr once said "if you don't have haters, then you got a problem."

But hey, we all got styles we like.

[LSC9901]

I guess my next question would be if you feel it OK for the 2nd place driver to crash & pass then why shouldn't they all be doing it ? After all every car I can get by will increase the points I earn. What about the car that is a lap down but just behind the leader of the race. There are 45 laps left. Is it OK for him to crash & pass ? Is that considered " a passion to win" ? After all if he can get back on the lead lap there is that chance he can get some new rubber, an adjustment and a chance to win it all. You mention that you feel it is OK with just a lap or two left but how do you feel about it wit the above scenerio ?

I know we'll never agree on this issue but I just don't think it is as cut and dry as moving someone on the last lap. Remember the gentlemans agreement about the yellow flag ???? If you OK one possibility then you open it up to each teams interpretation of how this agreement could be implemented. I still believe that if there is room on the track to pass and you have the faster car then why do you even need to consider the crash & pass plan ???

[Mike24]

Originally Posted by LSC9901

I guess my next question would be if you feel it OK for the 2nd place driver to crash & pass then why shouldn't they all be doing it ? After all every car I can get by will increase the points I earn. What about the car that is a lap down but just behind the leader of the race. There are 45 laps left. Is it OK for him to crash & pass ? Is that considered " a passion to win" ? After all if he can get back on the lead lap there is that chance he can get some new rubber, an adjustment and a chance to win it all. You mention that you feel it is OK with just a lap or two left but how do you feel about it wit the above scenerio ?

I know we'll never agree on this issue but I just don't think it is as cut and dry as moving someone on the last lap. Remember the gentlemans agreement about the yellow flag ???? If you OK one possibility then you open it up to each teams interpretation of how this agreement could be implemented. I still believe that if there is room on the track to pass and you have the faster car then why do you even need to consider the crash & pass plan ???

No. 45 laps to go is way too soon. I think when when it is 5 laps to go, it is every man for itself from there. But I do agree, 45 laps is too soon.

If you are faster, and the driver dosen't let him by, then just move him. The same thing goes with 2nd being slower. If he is slower, then he needs to get more out of the car. If the leader dosen't let him by, then move him. Sr did that all the time, and I respected him for it because it showed me his passion to win, which alot of drivers don't have, because they care too much about their competitors. Sr didn't, all he cared about was winning.

[LSC9901]

Originally Posted by Mike24

No. 45 laps to go is way too soon. I think when when it is 5 laps to go, it is every man for itself from there. But I do agree, 45 laps is too soon.

5 laps is OK but 45 too soon. A passion to win shouldn't have a timetable. What about points for most laps lead ??

[Mike24]

Originally Posted by LSC9901

5 laps is OK but 45 too soon. A passion to win shouldn't have a timetable. What about points for most laps lead ??

It wasn't a timetable. I was just saying within 5 to go is when it's everyman for itself.

I agree. I don't really like the 5 laps for leading a lap, I thought about 10-15 bonus points for leading the most, and that's it. Although the 5 laps for leading a lap is also called teammates working together, which teammates are a big part of NASCAR.

[PenelopePitStop]

Originally Posted by Racer Duck

If a driver does not have the skill nor the speed to pass an opponent cleanly using the unoccupied parts of the track, then "moving" that opponent is akin to cheating .. it certainly isn't sportsmanlike. whether it's the last lap or the first lap, it's all the same.

I applaud the drivers that take chances to win. I don't like drivers that block. And I disrespect any driver who relies on "moving" their competition out of the way in order to advance their position.

Crashes and wrecks happen when a driver is "moved" by his competition .. there are too many variables that the "moving" driver cannot control and that's the biggest problem other than sportsmanship. You can say you're sorry all you want, the fact still remains you caused the wreck because you didn't have enough faith in your car and your driving abilities to pass that opponent cleanly.

What's wrong with blocking? Every driver should defend their position on the track, especially for the win!

I always enjoyed Mark Martin for that talent. However, Sr. was blocking the field to see Waltrip and Jr. take first and second at Daytona, and it got him killed.

So ... no blocking ... no bump and run ... no taking the wind off the backend to get a car in front of you loose ... just drive around and wait for the door to open ...


Jeez! Did we get off topic or what?

[trollmc08]

Originally Posted by PenelopePitStop

What's wrong with blocking? Every driver should defend their position on the track, especially for the win!

I always enjoyed Mark Martin for that talent. However, Sr. was blocking the field to see Waltrip and Jr. take first and second at Daytona, and it got him killed.

So ... no blocking ... no bump and run ... no taking the wind off the backend to get a car in front of you loose ... just drive around and wait for the door to open ...


Jeez! Did we get off topic or what?

PPS nothing wrong with blocking, If you do then I think you open yourself up for a tap in the rear. Bump and run, BAD, if your car is better then use the rest of the track. Now the packing air or taking air off your opponent to git him loose I don't have a problem with, BUT you don't have to touch his car to do that. If you do touch his car thin I think your wrong.

[PenelopePitStop]

Originally Posted by trollmc08

PPS nothing wrong with blocking, If you do then I think you open yourself up for a tap in the rear. Bump and run, BAD, if your car is better then use the rest of the track. Now the packing air or taking air off your opponent to git him loose I don't have a problem with, BUT you don't have to touch his car to do that. If you do touch his car thin I think your wrong.

Yup! Agreed! If you block, you'll probably get run into. So do you blame the blocker, or the one who runs into the blocker? Tough call.

They always seem to tap the left, don't they? Just my opinion, but if they run into the center of the back, that will result in a wreck, intentional or not.

I'm not so sure about this "use the rest of the track" thing. If your car is best inside, and the car in front of you doesn't move outside so you can pass, do you just follow him around the track? That sounds harsh. I don't mean it to.

[Racer Duck]

there's another choice that some call blocking .. taking the other guy's line: if you drive a line where the other guy is faster, you are making that driver pass you where his car is not as good - remember Gordon taking the high line to stop Jr.s charge or Edwards hugging the inside making Harvick pass him high? that's not blocking and lots of "smart" drivers use it all the time...

blocking is when you drive all over the track using your mirror to keep the other guy behind you. happens all the time in the restrictor plate races. it's a stupid and dangerous way to race and hardly ever works 'cause there's always someone else who takes a chance and passes both blocker and the blockee while they're tied up with each other...

[Racer Duck]

Originally Posted by PenelopePitStop

They always seem to tap the left, don't they? Just my opinion, but if they run into the center of the back, that will result in a wreck, intentional or not.

I'm not so sure about this "use the rest of the track" thing. If your car is best inside, and the car in front of you doesn't move outside so you can pass, do you just follow him around the track? That sounds harsh. I don't mean it to.

words mean something .. there's a big difference between a "tap" and a "run into". you're right! a "run into" usually results in a wreck. I've never seen a tap cause a wreck.

if you don't "use the rest of the track" to pass another car that's running in your line, I guess you ought to take your marbles and go home, right? or the very least report him to the "not fair" crowd.

watch the really good, clean racers. yeah, they'll follow a car for lap after lap after lap, then suddenly they're around them and gone. you see, the whole time that driver was behind the other one, he was studying him, looking for timing and weaknesses and making a plan. when the time came, he was ready and executed his plan. it's called "knowing your enemy" and if you pass them on a regular basis, you've won a psycological battle: they almost always give in rather than fight. the guys who are hard to pass are the ones that change little things so that each lap is different and no pattern becomes apparent to the follower...

[PenelopePitStop]

Originally Posted by Racer Duck

there's another choice that some call blocking .. taking the other guy's line: if you drive a line where the other guy is faster, you are making that driver pass you where his car is not as good - remember Gordon taking the high line to stop Jr.s charge or Edwards hugging the inside making Harvick pass him high? that's not blocking and lots of "smart" drivers use it all the time...

blocking is when you drive all over the track using your mirror to keep the other guy behind you. happens all the time in the restrictor plate races. it's a stupid and dangerous way to race and hardly ever works 'cause there's always someone else who takes a chance and passes both blocker and the blockee while they're tied up with each other...

Oh, yes, I understand a driver holding a line to force the car behind him to pass where it is most difficult, usually outside.

And, yes, I've seen many a blocker and blockee overtaken by the next car in line. Now that you mention it, I do believe this technique is primarily during a restrictor-plate race.

I know what blocking is, and understand it is driving primarily through your rear-view mirror rather than out the windshield.

I guess we'll have to agree to disagree, my friend. I think blocking successfully is a talent in and of itself.

Racing isn't about just how fast your car is. It's about technique and strategy, wouldn't you say?

[PenelopePitStop]

Originally Posted by Racer Duck

words mean something .. there's a big difference between a "tap" and a "run into". you're right! a "run into" usually results in a wreck. I've never seen a tap cause a wreck.

if you don't "use the rest of the track" to pass another car that's running in your line, I guess you ought to take your marbles and go home, right? or the very least report him to the "not fair" crowd.

watch the really good, clean racers. yeah, they'll follow a car for lap after lap after lap, then suddenly they're around them and gone. you see, the whole time that driver was behind the other one, he was studying him, looking for timing and weaknesses and making a plan. when the time came, he was ready and executed his plan. it's called "knowing your enemy" and if you pass them on a regular basis, you've won a psycological battle: they almost always give in rather than fight. the guys who are hard to pass are the ones that change little things so that each lap is different and no pattern becomes apparent to the follower...

Again, I absolutely agree. Drivers do in fact "study" the car in front of them, then go for the kill (pass) when the car ahead is at its weakest.

I "prefer" clean racing, but sometimes, you've gotta do what you've gotta do.

[Racer Duck]

Originally Posted by PenelopePitStop

Racing isn't about just how fast your car is. It's about technique and strategy, wouldn't you say?

yep. I remember someone once said the trick to winning is going as slow as you can and ending up ahead of all the other folks at the end of the race. seem to remember something about a turtle and a rabbit in the story too...

the fastest car usually doesn't win the race .. if it did, then being on the pole would be vitally important!!!

[PenelopePitStop]

Originally Posted by Racer Duck

yep. I remember someone once said the trick to winning is going as slow as you can and ending up ahead of all the other folks at the end of the race. seem to remember something about a turtle and a rabbit in the story too...

the fastest car usually doesn't win the race .. if it did, then being on the pole would be vitally important!!!

Gordon does that! He "lurks" ... and "lurks" ... then BANG! He's like a tiger stalking his prey! Annoys the hell out of me!

[Tuck4Bama]

Originally Posted by PenelopePitStop

What's wrong with blocking? Every driver should defend their position on the track, especially for the win!

I always enjoyed Mark Martin for that talent. However, Sr. was blocking the field to see Waltrip and Jr. take first and second at Daytona, and it got him killed.

So ... no blocking ... no bump and run ... no taking the wind off the backend to get a car in front of you loose ... just drive around and wait for the door to open ...


Jeez! Did we get off topic or what?

Yes Sr. was blocking and Sterling Marlin and Sr. had contact and you know the rest of the story. who's fault, I don't put blame on either, they both weere experienced racers and I have seen Sr. walk away from what you would think was much worse wrecks but he died doing what he loved.