[LSC9901]

Greatness does come in many forms. I'm just not sure what Dim Wits form of greatness actually is. Yes he had a good number of victories and championships. If that how greatness is determined then he's in. I did not like his driving style. His style was like a style I do not like even today. Dale Sr. drove with the style. It was the move 'em out of the way and go by style. I know there are plenty who are OK with that type of racing and I will continue to watch racing even though I do not like the crash & pass style. That was Dim Wit's style and along with his immature interviews he just doesn't hold any form of greatness for me.

Naturally this is just MY opinion.

[oncea3fan]

to each his own, but IMHO he was a far better driver than commontater.

[LSC9901]

Originally Posted by oncea3fan

to each his own, but IMHO he was a far better driver than commontater.

I won't totally disagree with what you are saying. There is no doubt in my mind that he is terrible on TV. He was a winner on the track so I cannot argue that. I just didn't like his style of winning.

[Mike24]

Originally Posted by LSC9901

Greatness does come in many forms. I'm just not sure what Dim Wits form of greatness actually is. Yes he had a good number of victories and championships. If that how greatness is determined then he's in. I did not like his driving style. His style was like a style I do not like even today. Dale Sr. drove with the style. It as the move 'em out of the way and go by style. I know there are plenty who are OK with that type of racing and I will continue to watch racing even though I do not like the crash & pass style. That was Dim Wit's style and along with his immature interviews he just doesn't hold any form of greatness for me.

Naturally this is just MY opinion.

LSC, I got to ask you this. So if you were in 2nd, with the white flag coming out, and you were right on the bumper of the leader, and if you couldn't pass him, you would just let him have it? See, I don't like that. When I say someone having a passion to win, I mean that he will do whatever it takes to do it, not just let him have it if he can't pass him. Earnhardt was a perfect example, and I praise him because he just didn't let you win, he made you work for it because when you saw the black #3 coming towards ya, it made you get on the wheel. Earnhardt had a passion like no one else to win, and he showed it on the track. He did whatever it took to get the job done, and I wish more drivers have that style today, because I can only count with one hand on which drivers that have that style in todays NASCAR. If you have to bump someone out of the way to win, then that's too bad, it's called racin to win.

But hey, I like that style, you have a style you like.

[PenelopePitStop]

Originally Posted by LSC9901

Greatness does come in many forms. I'm just not sure what Dim Wits form of greatness actually is. Yes he had a good number of victories and championships. If that how greatness is determined then he's in. I did not like his driving style. His style was like a style I do not like even today. Dale Sr. drove with the style. It was the move 'em out of the way and go by style. I know there are plenty who are OK with that type of racing and I will continue to watch racing even though I do not like the crash & pass style. That was Dim Wit's style and along with his immature interviews he just doesn't hold any form of greatness for me.

Naturally this is just MY opinion.

Hey! Don't you go picking on Sr!

I don't think ANY driver should wreck anyone to get by, the bump-and-run, or taking the air of the rear, is ok by me.

Who was it this Sunday ... Harvick? ... who ran into the backend of several cars? I'm not defending him at all, but many drivers do the same thing.

This is racing! Should the faster cars just drive behind the slower cars because the slower cars won't move over?

For me, if I was racing and saw that big ole #3 come up on my rear and knew he had a faster car, I would let him by. However, not on the last lap if I was leading!

[trollmc08]

Well I am going to put my 2 cents worth in. I think if you are ahead of any body regardless of leading or not then you can hold your line as long as you so choose. If the car behind you is faster then they have the rest of the track to pass you if they can't pass you without bumping you out of the way then they don't deserve the spot. I know Sr. did do that but that don't mean I liked it but he is a different story anyway. If you say win no mater what then why not throw nails in front of the other cars so they can't pass you or git your spotter to shoot the leaders tires out then you can win and really feel like you had the best/fastest car on the track. To me that would be a very hollow victory. I would be like winning a wrestling match with my 3 year old nephew. Yea! That would make me a big man.

[PenelopePitStop]

Originally Posted by trollmc08

Well I am going to put my 2 cents worth in. I think if you are ahead of any body regardless of leading or not then you can hold your line as long as you so choose. If the car behind you is faster then they have the rest of the track to pass you if they can't pass you without bumping you out of the way then they don't deserve the spot. I know Sr. did do that but that don't mean I liked it but he is a different story anyway. If you say win no mater what then why not throw nails in front of the other cars so they can't pass you or git your spotter to shoot the leaders tires out then you can win and really feel like you had the best/fastest car on the track. To me that would be a very hollow victory. I would be like winning a wrestling match with my 3 year old nephew. Yea! That would make me a big man.

Troll--I hope by now you know I have the utmost respect for you.

No, no, no. I don't think the bump-and-run is the first choice. Throwing nails and shooting out tires is over the top. I also don't think NASCAR would allow a "win no matter what" these days. They are much quicker to "punish" aggressive driving over the past few years.

However, there was a race last year when the leader was wrecked by the second-place driver, and the second-place driver was given the win. I don't remember where the race was or who the two drivers were, but I didn't think it was right.

I agree with you ... I don't like "dirty" racing. I think that if you have a faster car, you should find a way to get around the car in front of you. That's part of the talent, isn't it?

I don't mind being pushed out of the way, that requires talent in and of itself. The trick is not to wreck the other driver.

[SpaceCadet]

Originally Posted by PenelopePitStop

However, there was a race last year when the leader was wrecked by the second-place driver, and the second-place driver was given the win. I don't remember where the race was or who the two drivers were, but I didn't think it was right.

I agree with you ... I don't like "dirty" racing. I think that if you have a faster car, you should find a way to get around the car in front of you. That's part of the talent, isn't it?

I don't mind being pushed out of the way, that requires talent in and of itself. The trick is not to wreck the other driver.

There wasn't just one incident of "bump and run to win" last year, or any other year. I can sit here and think of three big ones right off the bat. I think my father, a former racer himself, summed it up for me. We were watching a race, can't remember what race or what year. But Sr. wrecked somebody to get by and win. I yelled at the TV "Why the heck did you do that???" My father very calmly shook his head an said, "He did it because he's just a driver. He's not a racer. You can drive into the backend of anybody, that's not hard. But a real racer will take you clean any way he possibly can. One of you, maybe both of you might wreck from the bangin' and rubbin', side by side, but if you just hit 'em in the rear to wreck 'em for the win, that's different. If ya can't take 'em without puttin' them in the wall from behind, then be a man an take second." He turned off the TV and muttered "that's not racin', that's a 'gd' demolition derby." I'm sure that will PO every Sr. fan on the planet, which is not my intent. He just happened to be the "driver" that day. It seems to me there's a whole lot more "driver's" than "racer's" these days. Dad only watches a race when he has absolutely nothing else to do. He doesn't blame NASCAR for all the problems, but he does feel the biggest problem is the lack of integrity shown by some of today's drivers. He's a Mark Martin fan. No surprise there.

[LSC9901]

My, my ... little did I know that my opinion would create this monster !!!!!

Sorry Mike and all who agree but "I PERSONALLY" do not view crash & pass as racing. How did you feel when the Robby Gordon , debris, incident occured ?? How would you feel if the leader felt threatened and tossed some debris out the window so he could create a yellow to avoid being passed ? How about an intentional oil leak to trash the car behind you ? Where o where does the line get drawn before racing passion turns into a situation where you allow any type of method to win be considered a racing passion ? The nails theory sounds far fetched but what if ......

Nope I'm sorry. If the only way you feel you can win is to crash me or force me to lose control of my car then for me that is not a passion to win. I'd appologize for using Dale Sr. as an example but sorry folks ... that was his style. I didn't say that I didn't like him, I just didn't like that style of driving. There are others today that drive like that. As I've said on occassion I am a "RACE" fan and not a fan of any particular driver. Crash & pass is not racing in its most pure sense to me.

[Racer Duck]

SpaceCadet and LSC have it right. There's nothing wrong with bumping to let a driver know you want around and there's nothing wrong with that driver not moving over for you - irritating, maybe but not wrong. But you are wrong if you gotta take him out to get around him.

Like SpaceCadet's dad said "You can drive into the backend of anybody, that's not hard. But a real racer will take you clean any way he possibly can."

It doesn't matter what the rules are or how they're enforced. Pass'em if you can. If you can't, then be big enough to admit it and take what you have - it might be you in front next time...

[Racer Duck]

Originally Posted by Mike24

When I say someone having a passion to win, I mean that he will do whatever it takes to do it, not just let him have it if he can't pass him.

It's that attitude that's behind so many of the wrecks in NA$CAR. "Wrecking is not Racing!"

If you wanna see wrecking, go watch a destruction derby or go find the hot spot for "accidents" where you live. There's lots of us race fans who want to see racing, not wrecking.

[trollmc08]

Originally Posted by Racer Duck

It's that attitude that's behind so many of the wrecks in NA$CAR. "Wrecking is not Racing!"

If you wanna see wrecking, go watch a destruction derby or go find the hot spot for "accidents" where you live. There's lots of us race fans who want to see racing, not wrecking.

Absolutely the best races are caution free.

[PenelopePitStop]

Man, you guys are killing me! To say that Sr. was a "driver" and not a "racer" is just plain wrong. How many other drivers do you know who had/have the same determination to win as Sr.?

With very rare exception, I don't think that most drivers intentionally wreck another driver. Who were the two drivers last year who kept intentionally retaliating against each other? Remember? Or maybe it was the year before. Now that's wrong! That's not racing!

This is a hard-core sport. Look back in history. I'm sure you'll find that Sr. was not the only one with the "style" that today's fans and critics are opposed to.

If every driver was a "gentlemen" and just followed the leader, I'd stop following the sport. Mark Martin is one of the best blockers I've ever seen. If he gets in front, it's almost impossible to pass him "politely". That's a talent! Do I think the car following him should wreck him for the win, no way!

I don't know what to say. I feel like I'm being ganged up on here, and I know better than to try to change your perception, nor is that my intent. I guess I'll just keep my opinions regarding Sr. to myself ... I just hate to see him trashed. He was and still is an icon.

As they say, "Rubbin's Racing, Flippin's Wrecking", and "All's Fair in Love, War, and the Last Lap".

[Mike24]

Originally Posted by LSC9901

My, my ... little did I know that my opinion would create this monster !!!!!

Sorry Mike and all who agree but "I PERSONALLY" do not view crash & pass as racing. How did you feel when the Robby Gordon , debris, incident occured ?? How would you feel if the leader felt threatened and tossed some debris out the window so he could create a yellow to avoid being passed ? How about an intentional oil leak to trash the car behind you ? Where o where does the line get drawn before racing passion turns into a situation where you allow any type of method to win be considered a racing passion ? The nails theory sounds far fetched but what if ......

Nope I'm sorry. If the only way you feel you can win is to crash me or force me to lose control of my car then for me that is not a passion to win. I'd appologize for using Dale Sr. as an example but sorry folks ... that was his style. I didn't say that I didn't like him, I just didn't like that style of driving. There are others today that drive like that. As I've said on occassion I am a "RACE" fan and not a fan of any particular driver. Crash & pass is not racing in its most pure sense to me.

Originally Posted by Racer Duck

It's that attitude that's behind so many of the wrecks in NA$CAR. "Wrecking is not Racing!"

If you wanna see wrecking, go watch a destruction derby or go find the hot spot for "accidents" where you live. There's lots of us race fans who want to see racing, not wrecking.

You all are missing my point.

I'm not saying crashing is ok. Of course I want to see racing and not crashing. I'm not saying I want to see WRECKS, what I am saying is when you are racing to win, you should do whatever it takes to get that win, not just ride around because you know you can't pass him clean.

Racing to win and crashing people are 2 different things. I don't want to see wrecking, but I want to see actual racing to win, not just people riding around because they know they can't pass the leader. These drivers say they have a passion to win, but they do not have a TRUE passion. If it's the final lap, and I tell myself, "I have a shot to win this thing", I'm going to do whatever I have to do to take that opportunity and win the race. I don't care if you like it or not, I want to win and I will do whatever it takes. Sr had this attitude, and I respected him for it.

Again, let me make it clear. I do not like to see crashing, I'm talking about racing for the win, not wrecking and demo derbys.

Whatever happend to the term "rubbin is racin"?

[PenelopePitStop]

Originally Posted by Mike24

You all are missing my point.

I'm not saying crashing is ok. Of course I want to see racing and not crashing. I'm not saying I want to see WRECKS, what I am saying is when you are racing to win, you should do whatever it takes to get that win, not just ride around because you know you can't pass him clean.

Racing to win and crashing people are 2 different things. I don't want to see wrecking, but I want to see actual racing to win, not just people riding around because they know they can't pass the leader. These drivers say they have a passion to win, but they do not have a TRUE passion. If it's the final lap, and I tell myself, "I have a shot to win this thing", I'm going to do whatever I have to do to take that opportunity and win the race. I don't care if you like it or not, I want to win and I will do whatever it takes. Sr had this attitude, and I respected him for it.

Again, let me make it clear. I do not like to see crashing, I'm talking about racing for the win, not wrecking and demo derbys.

Whatever happend to the term "rubbin is racin"?

I can't believe I'm going to post this, but I actually agree with you on this one. However, there is a fine line that must be respected.