[jks812]

I don't have a problem with the cup drivers being in the busch races. But I do think it should be limited if they are not going to run the full year and every race. I think it should be just the last 5 slots for cup drivers. I think they should be limited in how many they run. For instance, set the limit to 5 races for each driver. If you show up to qualify and there are 8 cup drivers for the 5 slots and you didn't qualify, well you lost a slot and you're down to 4 races. The busch drivers are the ones the series to concentrate on, not the cup drivers. I use to love to watch it to see what driver might be the next one to go cup. But now I hardly ever watch it cause of the cup drivers.

[wardfan]

Originally Posted by LSC9901

This is kind of a Catch-22 situation. The lower financed teams have given up because the cup drivers have invaded. Therefore you only get 20-25 teams trying. If it was exclusively for Busch drivers I bet the numbers would increase.

That's what I think too. Why would some new sponser try to field a team when half the field is taken up by the cup teams.

[PenelopePitStop]

Originally Posted by LSC9901

But you may refer to me as Mr. Moderator !!!!

And you do a bang-up job, Mr. Moderator!

[Souporscotty]

Originally Posted by jks812

I don't have a problem with the cup drivers being in the busch races. But I do think it should be limited if they are not going to run the full year and every race. I think it should be just the last 5 slots for cup drivers. I think they should be limited in how many they run. For instance, set the limit to 5 races for each driver. If you show up to qualify and there are 8 cup drivers for the 5 slots and you didn't qualify, well you lost a slot and you're down to 4 races. The busch drivers are the ones the series to concentrate on, not the cup drivers. I use to love to watch it to see what driver might be the next one to go cup. But now I hardly ever watch it cause of the cup drivers.

I agree with this 100%

[Mike24]

Originally Posted by Quality88

Perhaps... but look at it this way... from the perspective of say a driver fan. How does the driver you follow build a following and a personality when constantly battling the cup boys. Their career may be snuffed out before it even begins because they didn't stack up to the cup boys. It will all be fine and well for those that can just jump in and pull it off... but those that need extra time to develop and grow are screwed. It also gives no individual identity to the Busch series.

That's true. Think about Burney Lamar... the guy had a ton of talent, but was overshadowed by the cup guys, and therefore... where is he now? So I do agree that the cup drivers overshadow the up and coming drivers. But NA$CAR wants money and money, and more money.

Originally Posted by LSC9901

This is kind of a Catch-22 situation. The lower financed teams have given up because the cup drivers have invaded. Therefore you only get 20-25 teams trying. If it was exclusively for Busch drivers I bet the numbers would increase.

Hmmmm, possibly. Then again, no cup drivers in Busch means a money stoppage for NASCAR. In that case, I don't see the Busch Series becoming the Busch Series like it should be, unfortunately.

[LSC9901]

Originally Posted by Mike24

Hmmmm, possibly. Then again, no cup drivers in Busch means a money stoppage for NASCAR. In that case, I don't see the Busch Series becoming the Busch Series like it should be, unfortunately.

I think the entire change over process would not happen over night. Once again Busch would have to re-create its own identity. There is no doubt that many who follow/enjoy Busch, do it because of the cup drivers in it. Cheaper and more plentiful tickets. It would take time to rebuild the system and would never be as lucrative as it is today, but for the benefit of the up and coming drivers it would be a necessity. As I have done in the past I like to compare it to minor league baseball. They pay the players zilch and they take in small amounts. The fan base is much smaller but manages to supply the majors with (generally) quality players. If NASCAR weren't in it just for the money I believe the system would work much better ... it just isn't going to change over night though.

[wingkey1]

Originally Posted by LSC9901

I think the entire change over process would not happen over night. Once again Busch would have to re-create its own identity. There is no doubt that many who follow/enjoy Busch, do it because of the cup drivers in it. Cheaper and more plentiful tickets. It would take time to rebuild the system and would never be as lucrative as it is today, but for the benefit of the up and coming drivers it would be a necessity. As I have done in the past I like to compare it to minor league baseball. They pay the players zilch and they take in small amounts. The fan base is much smaller but manages to supply the majors with (generally) quality players. If NASCAR weren't in it just for the money I believe the system would work much better ... it just isn't going to change over night though.

Picking up on the baseball comparison - those minor league (baseball) teams are fully capable of "maintaining" themselves financially. So too should the "minor league(s)" of/for NASCAR.

Personal observations lead me to believe/see that the development area(s) for future NASCAR drivers is no long Busch. Listening to where drivers and teams are increasingly investing to identify and develop the next crop ya tend to hear ASA, Hooters, Whelan (Formerly Featherlite Modified), local track acquisitions, local track participation. Initially heard much of this (local participation) from Schraeder and Stewart but the list of drivers jumping on is growing rapidly. Cup, Busch and CTS are and will likely continue to be the elite of the "stock" league. This is not a bad thing.

Most folks who call themselves fans of the race never/near never become regular visitors and supporters of their local tracks and competitors. This is a real shame. Most of the claimed "race fans" today observe from within 50 feet of their refridgerator. The up and comings are at your local track. They are driving Bandeleros, modifieds, sportsmans, midgets, sprints, quartermidgets, mini-nascar, gokarts and more. Volunteer opportunities abound, but go wanting. Too far from the fridge and the computer.

[Bob Tanner]

Originally Posted by wingkey1

Personal observations lead me to believe/see that the development area(s) for future NASCAR drivers is no long Busch. Listening to where drivers and teams are increasingly investing to identify and develop the next crop ya tend to hear ASA, Hooters, Whelan (Formerly Featherlite Modified), local track acquisitions, local track participation. Initially heard much of this (local participation) from Schraeder and Stewart but the list of drivers jumping on is growing rapidly. Cup, Busch and CTS are and will likely continue to be the elite of the "stock" league. This is not a bad thing..

I'm with you, Wing, except the above can only go so far with true NASCAR development. To really make it in Cup you have to have experience in any of the above PLUS experience on super speedways, driving long distances, exacting tire and fuel management, extremely high speeds and the like. About the only place to get all of this is in IRL, Formula Indy, F1 or CTS and Cup Lite. With the first three, the difference in vehicles is so drastic that only a driver with exceptional talent need apply.

Originally Posted by wingkey1

Most folks who call themselves fans of the race never/near never become regular visitors and supporters of their local tracks and competitors. This is a real shame. Most of the claimed "race fans" today observe from within 50 feet of their refridgerator. The up and comings are at your local track. They are driving Bandeleros, modifieds, sportsmans, midgets, sprints, quartermidgets, mini-nascar, gokarts and more. Volunteer opportunities abound, but go wanting. Too far from the fridge and the computer.

YES!! "Race" fans vs. "Driver" fans. If anything is ever pinpointed as the cause of the demise of NASCAR it'll be this. The fan who didn't know enough about the sport to care about what was actually going on.

Grrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrr!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[SpaceCadet]

Originally Posted by Bob Tanner

YES!! "Race" fans vs. "Driver" fans. If anything is ever pinpointed as the cause of the demise of NASCAR it'll be this. The fan who didn't know enough about the sport to care about what was actually going on.

Grrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrr!!!!!!!!!!!!!

It is amazing how many "fans" fall in to this category. Many fans cannot afford to go to or don't have a NASCAR track near them. If they would only take advantage of their local short tracks, dirt or pavement, their appreciation for the sport, the drivers, the owners, the crews, everyone involved in racing, would improve drastically. And honestly, does anything compare with actually being at a race??? I think not! The engines, the fumes, the nervous wives and mothers, and man, the hot dogs! I support my local track every Saturday night during the summer. Good ol' Oswego Speedway. One of our local supermodified drivers, Joe Gosek, ran the Indy 500 with Stewart. Came in two spots ahead of him, I believe. Tony, Kenny Schraeder, even DW have all paid us a visit. You never know who's going to show up. How can you beat that! If only some of these "fans" would take a few nights and really get a taste for their local tracks, we'd have a whole new breed of better educated, more appreciative fans. Go ahead, be a NASCAR fan, but find out where these guys came from and what real racing is. Learn how they struggle to put tires on the car every week, or come up with money to rent the track for practice so they don't hit the wall in that darn turn 4. You'll become a fan of RACING, and when some of these talented driver's move on, you can say "I knew him when!" It's totally addicting! Yeah, so grrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrr from me, too!

[wingkey1]

Originally Posted by Bob Tanner

I'm with you, Wing, except the above can only go so far with true NASCAR development. To really make it in Cup you have to have experience in any of the above PLUS experience on super speedways, driving long distances, exacting tire and fuel management, extremely high speeds and the like. About the only place to get all of this is in IRL, Formula Indy, F1 or CTS and Cup Lite. With the first three, the difference in vehicles is so drastic that only a driver with exceptional talent need apply.

YES!! "Race" fans vs. "Driver" fans. If anything is ever pinpointed as the cause of the demise of NASCAR it'll be this. The fan who didn't know enough about the sport to care about what was actually going on.

Grrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrr!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Awlrightty now!! Got people friggin' growling. You and Spacecadet too.

PLUS experience on super speedways, driving long distances, exacting tire and fuel management, extremely high speeds and the like - Yup. ASA has been the/a step towards this from the many really great classes at the local level. Hooters series has over the years begun to introduce "longer" events.

Fella we once raced with/against did Hooters with his oldest son for about 5 years then left it perhaps two seasons ago (Gotta get ya a copy of his weekly racing rag - Every week, two full pages of - Monte Dutton). Still see him pretty regular. While he was financially sound personally and had reasonably decent sponsorships, the increased prescence of "up and comings" being provided assistance from Cup owners and drivers contributed to their departure. This is not offered as a shot at big money influence on the sport, but simply to offer a close personal view of where the new minor leagues appear to be developing. Know I've also previously mentioned another acquaintance that we built cars with who raced Featherlite Modified primarily at Flemington. Childress saw him and not too long thereafter he received "support" from DEI. We were flabbergasted when the trailer/hauler arrived with the car and enough associated logistical support to make your head spin and your wallet hurt. Again, just offered as where investments are being made.

Will end again with - to see some really good racing - attend and support your local track.

[Quality88]

Originally Posted by LSC9901

But you may refer to me as Mr. Moderator !!!!

hehe... I'll be nice on this one

[LSC9901]

Originally Posted by Quality88

hehe... I'll be nice on this one

Obviously I was anticipating a few shots across the bow ..... nuttin' yet !!!