[Mike24]

Originally Posted by LSC9901

WOW ... this is an easy one for me. I speak only for myself so tie this view to me only until you see another one agreeing or disagreeing

I am a RACE FAN. I align myself with no driver. As I said when this discussion got into full tilt, I would remove any emotion and go by the numbers. I looked at one site and it stated that Jr is the # 12 rated driver. If you are looking at stats and leaving emotions in the bathroom then the numbers are all you have to go by. I said that I would pick 10 drivers and give anyone the numbers and from that info only you tell me how they should be rated. My guess is that wihout names anyone would have to agree with the numbers. Now when you add expectations of the fan, media and yourself you are adding emotions. When you add all those things then naturally the numbers take on a different shade of truth.

Again I say that Jr is not overrated ... by the numbers. He is overrated according to your standards. Exactly what your standards are aren't known completely by everyone. I expect every driver to win but realistically I know it cannot happen. I expect Jeff Gordon to win at least one more championship, but that may not happen. I expect that Jr will win at least one championship in his lfetime of driving, but that may not happen. Because I have these expectations of all these different drivers doesn't mean they are overrated. It means that I think they have the ablity to do it. Jr has the ability. There have been changes in his crew just as Jeff's crew situation has changed over time. Both have been negative changes so maybe some of the failure you see isn't even due to the driver, Jeff or Jr.

Overrated overall ??? Kind of a non-directional question. By the standards I go by in this case/thread he is not overrated. His record is his record. Good finishes increase his record percentages and poor finishes decrease his percentages.

Well I think we are all race fans if we watch it.

And if Jr has the ability to do it, then he should be able to do it. Sr had the ability to do it, and he won 7 championships and 76 races. Petty had the ability to do it, he won 7 championships and had a whopping 210 wins. Darrell Waltrip had the ability to do it, he won 3 championships. So if Jr has the ability to do it, then he should be winning 4-5 races a year and win a championship right? But he dosen't win 4-5 races a year, and the question can be asked if Jr will ever win a championship. I have said so many times Jr does not have the drive to win a race and a championship like the many other great drivers have. Yet I have heard people say time and time again say he is the best driver ever, and he is this and that. No, he is not the best ever, and he is not this and that. He's only won 2 races combined in 05-06, that's being the best ever I'm sure. Again, that's called being over-rated.

Yes, Jr is not over-rated to your standards, but he is to mine and alot of others. Some people just base it off of talent, but I and alot of other people base it off the popularity and expectations, and we put the stats up against it and the other drivers who have experienced the same stuff. Jr has not lived up to anything, which is why in my book he is over-rated until he lives up to those standards.

I don't care how many of you try to deny it, but stats make the driver, not talent. He may have talent, but he dosen't put up the stats that is expected of him, which is why he is considered over-rated by alot of people, including me. Like I said, if I'm a new fan and I see Jr as this popular driver, then I'm expecting that he has these stellar numbers. But he dosen't. He got popular because of Sr, which is the only reason he is popular and has high expectations. Again, over-rated.

[Gr8RaceFan]

Originally Posted by Lefty Noob

Well, it's an interesting issue.

Junior - 257 races, 17 wins (6.6%), 69 top 5s (26.5%), 109 top 10s (42.4%)
Gordon - 475 races, 75 wins (15.8%), 214 top 5s (45.1%), 289 top 10s (60.1%)
Stewart - 286 races, 29 wins (10.3%), 108 top 5s (37.8%), 169 top 10s (59.1%)
Johnson - 185 races, 23 wins (12.4%), 67 top 5s (36.2%), 111 top 10s (60.0%)

As much as I like Junior, his winning percentage, top 5 percentage and top 10 percentage are all considerably lower than those of Gordon, Stewart and Johnson. Does that mean he's overrated? I don't know for sure. But the numbers are what they are.

Are all of those stats in the same timeframe?

[Mike24]

Originally Posted by Gr8RaceFan

Are all of those stats in the same timeframe?

Hmmmmm. Good question. I'll do some research and bring it back.

[LSC9901]

Originally Posted by Mike24

Well I think we are all race fans if we watch it.

Yes but my point is that I do not cheer for any one driver. I watch the races for the sake of the race. I don't care who wins.

Originally Posted by Mike24

And if Jr has the ability to do it, then he should be able to do it.

He has the ability to meet the standards of his own record. How can that be argued? Has Jeff, Jimmy, Derek performed above or below the standards of their own records ?

Originally Posted by Mike24

Sr had the ability to do it, and he won 7 championships and 76 races. Petty had the ability to do it, he won 7 championships and had a whopping 210 wins. Darrell Waltrip had the ability to do it, he won 3 championships.

While I agree that Petty was a great driver, take a closer look at his stats. They are a little deceptive.

Originally Posted by Mike24

So if Jr has the ability to do it, then he should be winning 4-5 races a year and win a championship right? But he dosen't win 4-5 races a year, and the question can be asked if Jr will ever win a championship. I have said so many times Jr does not have the drive to win a race and a championship like the many other great drivers have. Yet I have heard people say time and time again say he is the best driver ever, and he is this and that. No, he is not the best ever, and he is not this and that. He's only won 2 races combined in 05-06, that's being the best ever I'm sure. Again, that's called being over-rated.

Keep in mind that races are not won by the driver alone. tire failures, engine failures, accidents that the driver has no control of .......

Originally Posted by Mike24

Yes, Jr is not over-rated to your standards, but he is to mine and alot of others. Some people just base it off of talent, but I and alot of other people base it off the popularity and expectations, and we put the stats up against it and the other drivers who have experienced the same stuff. Jr has not lived up to anything, which is why in my book he is over-rated until he lives up to those standards.

I don't care how many of you try to deny it, but stats make the driver, not talent. He may have talent, but he dosen't put up the stats that is expected of him, which is why he is considered over-rated by alot of people, including me. Like I said, if I'm a new fan and I see Jr as this popular driver, then I'm expecting that he has these stellar numbers. But he dosen't. He got popular because of Sr, which is the only reason he is popular and has high expectations. Again, over-rated.

When you base anything on popularity and your expectations you are setting yourself up for disappointment and shaded truth. If in fact stats do make the driver then how can the stats tell anything but the facts. He is the 12th rated driver ... according to the stats.

[LSC9901]

Originally Posted by Gr8RaceFan

Are all of those stats in the same timeframe?

Yes they are in the same basic time frame. It s when they entered the Cup series and they all started in the same era.

[vincesanity82]

Jr. is not overated. He's had more publicity than most because of his legend dad but also with his own success and commercial media. However, jr. has worked very hard to get where he's at, his daddy didn't give him anything he had to work for it. I'm sure though too having his father die on the race track and them being as close as they were it's had its effects on him mentally.. He did win daytona, many drivers go there whole career without a win at daytona and it leaves a sour taste in their mouth. He may not be the best statistcally right now, but he's a great driver who can never be counted out to win a race everytime they go out...

[Mike24]

Originally Posted by LSC9901

Yes but my point is that I do not cheer for any one driver. I watch the races for the sake of the race. I don't care who wins.



He has the ability to meet the standards of his own record. How can that be argued? Has Jeff, Jimmy, Derek performed above or below the standards of their own records ?




While I agree that Petty was a great driver, take a closer look at his stats. They are a little deceptive.


Keep in mind that races are not won by the driver alone. tire failures, engine failures, accidents that the driver has no control of .......




When you base anything on popularity and your expectations you are setting yourself up for disappointment and shaded truth. If in fact stats do make the driver then how can the stats tell anything but the facts. He is the 12th rated driver ... according to the stats.

Yes, but his popularity expects him to be in the top 2 in stats, and he's not.

[Mike24]

Originally Posted by vincesanity82

Jr. is not overated. He's had more publicity than most because of his legend dad but also with his own success and commercial media. However, jr. has worked very hard to get where he's at, his daddy didn't give him anything he had to work for it. I'm sure though too having his father die on the race track and them being as close as they were it's had its effects on him mentally.. He did win daytona, many drivers go there whole career without a win at daytona and it leaves a sour taste in their mouth. He may not be the best statistcally right now, but he's a great driver...

Again, a great driver is not made by talent, but statistically, and Jr dosen't have the satistics that fits the popularity. That's why alot of people think he is over-rated, and other people have different reasons. But you all have your opinions.

[LSC9901]

Originally Posted by Mike24

Again, a great driver is not made by talent, but statistically, and Jr dosen't have the satistics that fits the popularity. That's why alot of people think he is over-rated, and other people have different reasons. But you all have your opinions.

So what you are saying is that Dale Jarrett is overrated due to his stats versus popularity ???

How about Derek Cope ??? He won the 500 once, by accident. Is he overrated due to that or are all of his stats considered ?

[Mike24]

These stats come from a 7 year timespan from the start of their career.

Jeff Gordon - Poles 30 Wins 49 Top 5 118 Top 10 140 Championships 3

Dale Earnhardt - Poles 6 Wins 15 Top 5 77 Top 10 112 Championships 1

Tony Stewart - Poles 10 Wins 24 Top 5 93 Top 10 146 Championships 2

Jimmie Johnson (5 year timespan) Poles 9 Wins 23 Top 5 66 Top 10 110 Championships 1

And Johnson has only raced for 5 going on 6 years, and he will have more top 5s and top 10s than Jr. Jr is last in all of these stats. And fans say Jr is the best ever and Jr is a legend.... that just proves again that he is over-rated.

[LSC9901]

Originally Posted by Mike24

Yes, but his popularity expects him to be in the top 2 in stats, and he's not.

No, No ... your vision of his popularuty does that. His popularity from my perspective is nothing more than media hype. Since media hype contributes ZERO to stats he is merely performing to his ability.

[Mike24]

Originally Posted by LSC9901

So what you are saying is that Dale Jarrett is overrated due to his stats versus popularity ???

How about Derek Cope ??? He won the 500 once, by accident. Is he overrated due to that or are all of his stats considered ?

Was Derek Cope as popular as Jr? Was Dale Jarrett as popular as Jr? No. I don't think you understand where I'm getting from, so I'll explain more clearly.

If you are popular at a certain level, then you are expected to perform at a certain level. Jarrett and Cope were not as popular as alot of drivers, so alot wasn't expected of them, and quite frankly they did more than what was expected. But Jr is so popular, and he dosen't perform up to his expectations the popularity gives him. How is that not being over-rated? I don't understand that. You have your opinions, but I get confused over that.

[LSC9901]

Originally Posted by Mike24

These stats come from a 7 year timespan from the start of their career.

Jeff Gordon - Poles 30 Wins 49 Top 5 118 Top 10 140 Championships 3

Dale Earnhardt - Poles 6 Wins 15 Top 5 77 Top 10 112

Tony Stewart - Poles 10 Wins 24 Top 5 93 Top 10 146

Jimmie Johnson (5 year timespan) Poles 9 Wins 23 Top 5 66 Top 10 110

And Johnson has only raced for 5 going on 6 years, and he will have more top 5s and top 10s than Jr. Jr is last in all of these stats. And fans say Jr is the best ever and Jr is a legend.... that just proves again that he is over-rated.

What are the fan stats? I'm a fan but do not feel he is overrated according to his ability and his record.

[LSC9901]

Originally Posted by Mike24

Was Derek Cope as popular as Jr? Was Dale Jarrett as popular as Jr? No. I don't think you understand where I'm getting from, so I'll explain more clearly.

If you are popular at a certain level, then you are expected to perform at a certain level. Jarrett and Cope were not as popular as alot of drivers, so alot wasn't expected of them, and quite frankly they did more than what was expected. But Jr is so popular, and he dosen't perform up to his expectations the popularity gives him. How is that not being over-rated? I don't understand that. You have your opinions, but I get confused over that.

I'm not sure of your age Mike but Dale Jarrett is and has been a real fan favorite. Can you show me where it states what Jr's expectations of himself are ??? You keep saying that and to a degree I see what you are saying, but I see it the way I said before. Any reasonably good driver is going to assume that if all things are right they will win the race of the week and the championship of that year. There is nothing wrong with that. If Jeff doesn't view each race as a possible victory then he is failing his team.

How is being rated as the 12th place driver conceived as being overrated ??? Those are the numbers and not the media hype or anyones opinions.

[Quality88]

Originally Posted by Mike24

If you are popular at a certain level, then you are expected to perform at a certain level. Jarrett and Cope were not as popular as alot of drivers, so alot wasn't expected of them, and quite frankly they did more than what was expected.

Now wait just a minute. Jarrett has had an impressive career. He may have not shined like ol Gordo but has the respect of his peers and fans.