[LSC9901]

Originally Posted by Souporscotty

Is this gonna be another season where every thread gets hijacked by the Gordon lover/haters ?

As long as it doesn't get into member insults and as long as it basically remains on topic, then we will probably still put up with the comparisons. Trust me though, that is as far off topic as it will get. If you feel it is happening by all means PM me, rmjvol or Lefty Noob. There is no room for members arguing with one another.

Originally Posted by PenelopePitStop

Yes, I do believe the author of the original post is history! Thank the heavens!

I agree that stats aren't the only issue. I think Mark Martin is great, regardless of his stats. I am/was not a Sr. fan due to his 7 championships, but for other reasons. I loved him as much as others hated him. Honestly, I don't even follow the stats all that closely.

To clarify yet another point in my views. I do not live by stats alone. I will generate stats to use as fair examples of why or why not in any given subject. As Space Cadet noted stats are not emotional and if you look at many fans you'll see that a number of them are emotional about "Their Driver". That is a scenerio that always has been and always will be. Therefore once again in cases where that happens I like to compare the stats. The numbers are what they are. I also agree that Martin is a great NASCAR driver. He just failed to excel in one catagory. That alone does not make or break him. It is a FAN important stat and it is pretty tough to dilike a guy who has better than average stats but no championship.

Last but not least I say again that Jr is overrated by the media. His stats are better than average. No championship yet but then again he isn't alone in that area.

[Nevadastars]

Originally Posted by Souporscotty

Oh man, last fall, almost EVERY thread, no matter WHAT it was about, ended up being a big row between the Gordon lover/haters.

And why was that? Because some people, no matter what the topic was, turned it into how great Gordon is, or gave him an excuse why he did poorly. Some of us just dont want to keep hearing about him so retaliate with our feelings on the matter, then the lovers get upset and.....

[Quality88]

Originally Posted by Nevadastars

And why was that? Because some people, no matter what the topic was, turned it into how great Gordon is, or gave him an excuse why he did poorly. Some of us just dont want to keep hearing about him so retaliate with our feelings on the matter, then the lovers get upset and.....

Couldn't agree more with you.

[Mike24]

Looks like we need to clear up a few things.

Did I ever say stats made a driver talented? no. Please point that out in a post I made, cause you can't. Again, back to what I said. Jr is talented, but with his expectations and popularity, I expect him to perform on a level like Sr, Gordon, Stewart, etc, and he dosen't do that.

I never mentioned ANYTHING about Jeff Gordon being this and that, so please, stop accusing things that aren't there. I really don't feel like arguing with haters about this and that, so I ain't gonna bring up anything about Jeff Gordon, because it starts nothing but pointless arguments.

I don't care how talented the driver is, if you don't have stats to back it up, then you won't make it. Does Jr have solid stats? Yes. But, Jr is obviously the most popular in sports, and he gets high expectations every year. I expect him to achieve that, and he dosen't time and time again. If that's not over-rated, then we need to re-write the definition of over-rated and edit it in the dictionary.

[Mike24]

Originally Posted by PenelopePitStop

Easy, Mike, easy! Nobody is attacking you or Gordon!

I don't think Jr. is better than Gordon by any stretch. Does Gordon have a better official record? Yes. But it's "how" he got his wins that makes him less popular than Jr. I've seen Sr. and Jr. make incredible moves during a race that I just haven't seen with Gordon.

As of late, if Jr. screws up, he admits to it. I've never heard Gordon do the same. He always blames someone else. What completely turned me off to Gordon happened a few years ago. He wrecked someone to get the win, and during a post-race interview, he said, "He wouldn't let me by!" Wouldn't let him by? What racer just lets another racer by for the win? That's racin'. You've got to figure out a way to get by without causing a wreck! That was it for me!

Do I think Jr. is a legend? No way. Not yet anyway. I feel the same about Gordon. I think there are only two drivers who are legends in the sport, Petty and Sr. That's it. There may never be another, though there are many other good drivers.

Busch and Johnson won championships. I don't think that makes them two of the "best".

If you base who is the best driver solely on the number of races they have won, I guess that's a different mindset.

Like I have said many times, I don't care if you are talented. If you are talented, then you should be able to put up stats. Jr has talent, but he dosen't have stats to back it up, and when you are popular like Jr is, I better see stats, and he dosen't have the numbers to make me think he is something. As many of you try to deny it, stats make the driver. If he has talent, then the stats better show it. Jr has talent, but his stats don't show it. And with all the popularity/expectations he gets, he dosen't live up to the hype.

I'm not even gonna respond to your comment about Gordon. Don't feel like discussing Gordon, but I do feel like discussing the topic, which is Jr being over-rated. The old Mike would have probably responded in a harsh manner, but the new Mike won't do that.

Again, I'm not saying you or anyone else said these absurd comments. I'm just saying I have heard them before, so this was basically my response to those comments.

We all have our opinions and views, and this is my opinion. If you don't like it, then, good for you.

[Quality88]

Originally Posted by Mike24

Looks like we need to clear up a few things.

Did I ever say stats made a driver talented? no. Please point that out in a post I made, cause you can't.

When you first started posting on GTG you constantly pointed out his stats Mike, you and Dupont both trying to defend him against us. However that has not been the case for a quite some time now. That's all I'm gonna say. Is Jr overrated.... Mediawise yes. He has quite the talent... he just needs to put it all together and get other things together.

[LSC9901]

First off I can see that this thread may be going in the direction no one wants it to go in so I'll put out the yellow and caution everyone to keep it civil and on topic. Comparisons and opinions are great.

Originally Posted by Mike24

Looks like we need to clear up a few things.

Did I ever say stats made a driver talented? no. Please point that out in a post I made, cause you can't. Again, back to what I said. Jr is talented, but with his expectations and popularity, I expect him to perform on a level like Sr, Gordon, Stewart, etc, and he dosen't do that.

I'll stand with you or anyone on that point Mike. If it was said then point it out to me, if it can't be found don't say someone said it. Now let me just have you further clear up a point. You said expectations ... who's ?? His own or the expectations of someone else ? If they are his expectations, how can you be upset that anyone sets high expectations ?? High expectations are what winning is all about. If they are the medias expectations or that of Joe Fan then they mean nothing. My theory is that he (as all drivers probably are) performing to the best of his ability and as good as the equipment allows. No driver has control over a broken engine, an accident such as the one caused by Vickers last year.

Originally Posted by Mike24

I never mentioned ANYTHING about Jeff Gordon being this and that, so please, stop accusing things that aren't there. I really don't feel like arguing with haters about this and that, so I ain't gonna bring up anything about Jeff Gordon, because it starts nothing but pointless arguments.

Point well taken and everyone needs to follow suit.

Originally Posted by Mike24

I don't care how talented the driver is, if you don't have stats to back it up, then you won't make it. Does Jr have solid stats? Yes. But, Jr is obviously the most popular in sports, and he gets high expectations every year. I expect him to achieve that, and he dosen't time and time again. If that's not over-rated, then we need to re-write the definition of over-rated and edit it in the dictionary.

Here is my case in point. What you have stated is your expectations ... not what he feels he can do. Again I feel that emotions are playing a part in this. I could blindly give you stats about 10 drivers and you would basically have to agree that the driver with the better stats is the better driver. Too many driver fans allow emotions to over ride stats when they make comparisons. Just say the word and I'll dig up stats on 10 random drivers without names attached to them. Then you list 60 current drivers and list them in the order you like them. I'll bet the drivers and stats will not match up.

[Mike24]

Originally Posted by Quality88

When you first started posting on GTG you constantly pointed out his stats Mike, you and Dupont both trying to defend him against us. However that has not been the case for a quite some time now. That's all I'm gonna say. Is Jr overrated.... Mediawise yes. He has quite the talent... he just needs to put it all together and get other things together.

But.... that was when I first started posting. This is now.

[Quality88]

Originally Posted by Mike24

But.... that was when I first started posting. This is now.

Correct... but you said point out if you had ever said that and I did I commend you on your progress. Now back to topic. Is Jr overrated? It's in the eye of the beholder. Do stats make the driver... perhaps. There are drivers who have a crapload of stats IE the king. What about some drivers that have titles with little wins. BP won a title winning only one race. Kenseth the same. Not very impressive but they won the title. It's in the eye of the beholder. Not everyone is impressed by stats. Some are. Gordon has impressive stats. He is very talented. Jr is talented... he just hasn't shown it like everyone has thought he should.

[Mike24]

Originally Posted by LSC9901

First off I can see that this thread may be going in the direction no one wants it to go in so I'll put out the yellow and caution everyone to keep it civil and on topic. Comparisons and opinions are great.




I'll stand with you or anyone on that point Mike. If it was said then point it out to me, if it can't be found don't say someone said it. Now let me just have you further clear up a point. You said expectations ... who's ?? His own or the expectations of someone else ? If they are his expectations, how can you be upset that anyone sets high expectations ?? High expectations are what winning is all about. If they are the medias expectations or that of Joe Fan then they mean nothing. My theory is that he (as all drivers probably are) performing to the best of his ability and as good as the equipment allows. No driver has control over a broken engine, an accident such as the one caused by Vickers last year.



Point well taken and everyone needs to follow suit.



Here is my case in point. What you have stated is your expectations ... not what he feels he can do. Again I feel that emotions are playing a part in this. I could blindly give you stats about 10 drivers and you would basically have to agree that the driver with the better stats is the better driver. Too many driver fans allow emotions to over ride stats when they make comparisons. Just say the word and I'll dig up stats on 10 random drivers without names attached to them. Then you list 60 current drivers and list them in the order you like them. I'll bet the drivers and stats will not match up.

What can Jr do? Jr has won only 2 races combined in 05 and 06. Jr had a great season in 2004, and the fans/media ran with it, and gave him high expectations, and Jr dropped the ball. But still, people are constantly saying this and that, when obviously Jr is not performing to his best abilities right now. Jr is more popular than Gordon was in the 90's, Jr is more popular than Sr was, so like I have said time and time again, I expect Jr to put up stats to backup why he is popular, and he dosen't. He is popular because of Sr, not because of his abilities.

Expectations mean the fans/media expect Jr to have this kind of season. Jr's expectations every year is to win the championship, or finish 2nd in points and win like 6 races a year. And he hasn't done that. Look at his combined wins in 05 and 06, only 2 wins!

Again, I respect all of your opinions, and I won't go on a bashing parade because of it. But I just feel that Jr is over-rated, and I will defend those opinions.

[Mike24]

Originally Posted by Quality88

Correct... but you said point out if you had ever said that and I did I commend you on your progress. Now back to topic. Is Jr overrated? It's in the eye of the beholder. Do stats make the driver... perhaps. There are drivers who have a crapload of stats IE the king. What about some drivers that have titles with little wins. BP won a title winning only one race. Kenseth the same. Not very impressive but they won the title. It's in the eye of the beholder. Not everyone is impressed by stats. Some are. Gordon has impressive stats. He is very talented. Jr is talented... he just hasn't shown it like everyone has thought he should.

EXACTLY what I was looking for.

Jr has talent. I think the majority knows that. But he hasn't shown it like the fans and the media expects him to. That is why he is over-rated!!!!!! For example, lets pretend I'm just a new NASCAR fan. I hear all the praise going around Jr. Everyone is like DUDE Jr is da bomb and is the best driver on the circuit! So I compare stats to drivers who have been champions and are considered legends. The stats do not compare up to them. So I think to myself "Is Jr really what people say he is?" Again, if the driver has talent, I expect the stats to show up with the talent, and Jr's stats don't match the talent. So until those stats match the talent, I will always look at Jr as being over-rated. Now why do I say Mark Martin is not over-rated? He only won like 1 race a season and no championships? Martin was no where near as popular as Jr, and his expectations weren't that high. And Martin performed about where people expected him to.

[LSC9901]

Originally Posted by Mike24

EXACTLY what I was looking for.

Jr has talent. I think the majority knows that. But he hasn't shown it like the fans and the media expects him to. That is why he is over-rated!!!!!!

And that is my point exactly ... fans and media. I've said that in several postings. Did I not specify that clearly enough ?????

Originally Posted by Mike24

What can Jr do? Jr has won only 2 races combined in 05 and 06. Jr had a great season in 2004, and the fans/media ran with it, and gave him high expectations, and Jr dropped the ball. But still, people are constantly saying this and that, when obviously Jr is not performing to his best abilities right now. Jr is more popular than Gordon was in the 90's, Jr is more popular than Sr was, so like I have said time and time again, I expect Jr to put up stats to backup why he is popular, and he dosen't. He is popular because of Sr, not because of his abilities.

Expectations mean the fans/media expect Jr to have this kind of season. Jr's expectations every year is to win the championship, or finish 2nd in points and win like 6 races a year. And he hasn't done that. Look at his combined wins in 05 and 06, only 2 wins!

Again, I respect all of your opinions, and I won't go on a bashing parade because of it. But I just feel that Jr is over-rated, and I will defend those opinions.

Are there any drivers out there, that have a reasonable chance at a championship, that don't expect to or want to win. When the subject of being overrated is blurred by anything other than the expectations of the team/driver you'll always get what we currently have ... misunderstandings and blurred facts.

[Mike24]

Originally Posted by LSC9901

And that is my point exactly ... fans and media. I've said that in several postings. Did I not specify that clearly enough ?????




Are there any drivers out there, that have a reasonable chance at a championship, that don't expect to or want to win. When the subject of being overrated is blurred by anything other than the expectations of the team/driver you'll always get what we currently have ... misunderstandings and blurred facts.

Tell me how Jr is not over-rated? You said he is over-rated by the media, but how is he not over-rated overall? I would like to know anyones opinions on why Jr isn't over-rated overall, we all know he is over-rated by the media.

[LSC9901]

Originally Posted by Mike24

Tell me how Jr is not over-rated? You said he is over-rated by the media, but how is he not over-rated overall? I would like to know anyones opinions on why Jr isn't over-rated overall, we all know he is over-rated by the media.

WOW ... this is an easy one for me. I speak only for myself so tie this view to me only until you see another one agreeing or disagreeing

I am a RACE FAN. I align myself with no driver. As I said when this discussion got into full tilt, I would remove any emotion and go by the numbers. I looked at one site and it stated that Jr is the # 12 rated driver. If you are looking at stats and leaving emotions in the bathroom then the numbers are all you have to go by. I said that I would pick 10 drivers and give anyone the numbers and from that info only you tell me how they should be rated. My guess is that wihout names anyone would have to agree with the numbers. Now when you add expectations of the fan, media and yourself you are adding emotions. When you add all those things then naturally the numbers take on a different shade of truth.

Again I say that Jr is not overrated ... by the numbers. He is overrated according to your standards. Exactly what your standards are aren't known completely by everyone. I expect every driver to win but realistically I know it cannot happen. I expect Jeff Gordon to win at least one more championship, but that may not happen. I expect that Jr will win at least one championship in his lfetime of driving, but that may not happen. Because I have these expectations of all these different drivers doesn't mean they are overrated. It means that I think they have the ablity to do it. Jr has the ability. There have been changes in his crew just as Jeff's crew situation has changed over time. Both have been negative changes so maybe some of the failure you see isn't even due to the driver, Jeff or Jr.

Overrated overall ??? Kind of a non-directional question. By the standards I go by in this case/thread he is not overrated. His record is his record. Good finishes increase his record percentages and poor finishes decrease his percentages.

[Quality88]

Originally Posted by LSC9901

WOW ... this is an easy one for me. I speak only for myself so tie this view to me only until you see another one agreeing or disagreeing

I am a RACE FAN. I align myself with no driver. As I said when this discussion got into full tilt, I would remove any emotion and go by the numbers. I looked at one site and it stated that Jr is the # 12 rated driver. If you are looking at stats and leaving emotions in the bathroom then the numbers are all you have to go by. I said that I would pick 10 drivers and give anyone the numbers and from that info only you tell me how they should be rated. My guess is that wihout names anyone would have to agree with the numbers. Now when you add expectations of the fan, media and yourself you are adding emotions. When you add all those things then naturally the numbers take on a different shade of truth.

Again I say that Jr is not overrated ... by the numbers. He is overrated according to your standards. Exactly what your standards are aren't known completely by everyone. I expect every driver to win but realistically I know it cannot happen. I expect Jeff Gordon to win at least one more championship, but that may not happen. I expect that Jr will win at least one championship in his lfetime of driving, but that may not happen. Because I have these expectations of all these different drivers doesn't mean they are overrated. It means that I think they have the ablity to do it. Jr has the ability. There have been changes in his crew just as Jeff's crew situation has changed over time. Both have been negative changes so maybe some of the failure you see isn't even due to the driver, Jeff or Jr.

Overrated overall ??? Kind of a non-directional question. By the standards I go by in this case/thread he is not overrated. His record is his record. Good finishes increase his record percentages and poor finishes decrease his percentages.

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