[LSC9901]

Originally Posted by Mike24

no, it's not because I'm a Gordon fan. I see Gordon haters all the time, EVEN JR FANS, admit the fact that Jr is over-rated.

I've said it many times and just for clarification I 'll state it again. I am a fan of no particular driver. With that said exactly how and why is Jr. over rated ??? It's realtively easy to state that and as I've said before I do not totally disagree with you but ......... his stats say he is not overrated as a driver. As a media hyped person YES !!!! That isn't his fault. Does he contribute to it ??? Maybe ... but there is millions in it for him. Why not ???

So can you, for the sake of discussion, explain why you feel he is overrated ?

[PenelopePitStop]

Wow, LSC!

How do you get this stuff so damn (can I say that?) fast? Very interesting stats!

Again, I have to ask someone to clarify the difference between "the best" and the "most popular".

I've seen drivers make amazing moves to win a race, and have seen others just pull ahead for most of the race to win.

Who's the better driver? The driver with the fastest car? Or the driver who makes the best of what he's got and goes on to finish in the top five?

I'm a huge fan of IROC. All cars are the same. It's driver talent that wins these races. Do I have to mention the drivers who have the most IROC wins?

[Mike24]

Originally Posted by LSC9901

I've said it many times and just for clarification I 'll state it again. I am a fan of no particular driver. With that said exactly how and why is Jr. over rated ??? It's realtively easy to state that and as I've said before I do not totally disagree with you but ......... his stats say he is not overrated as a driver. As a media hyped person YES !!!! That isn't his fault. Does he contribute to it ??? Maybe ... but there is millions in it for him. Why not ???

So can you, for the sake of discussion, explain why you feel he is overrated ?

I have heard people time and time again say "Dale Earnhardt Jr is the best driver on the NASCAR circuit! Dale Jr is better than HMS combined! Jr is the best ever!" Although I haven't heard anyone on this forum make these absurd comments, I have seen them before. Ok, first off, DEI as a team has no championships, and Jr has no championships, while Rick Hendrick as a TEAM has 6, Gordon having 4, Johnson and Labonte with 1 each. So again, tell me, Jr is better than HMS combined? Please.

Jr has been around for 7 years? ok. Jeff Gordon won 3 championships in a 6 year timespan, but how many does Jr have? 0. And lets compare the wins in a 7 year timespan between Jr and Jeff. Jeff has 49 wins, thats right, a whopping 49 WINS in a 7 YEAR TIMESPAN! How many does Jr have? 17! And Jr is better than Jeff? Not by a long shot! And many other drivers including Tony Stewart, and the list goes on, have had more wins in a 7 year timespan than Jr. Jr the best ever? Not a chance.

And the thing that baffles me by far. Some people say Jr is a LEGEND. I said it right, A LEGEND! Give me a break! How is Jr a legend in a 7 year timespan when he has 0 championships and only 17 wins? And Jr by far receives the most attention, so I expect popularity means big numbers. Jr, Stewart, Petty, Earnhardt, Gordon, and the list goes on are popular, and the big numbers show for it. Jr on the other hand, he is popular, but the numbers don't show for it. And Jr is a legend? If you think Jr is already a legend, then your just...... ahhh, that kinda talk will get me in some deep trouble.

I think this is plenty of detail. If I have to give some more details, I will.

And let me give you the definition of over-rated.

1. To assess or think too highly of something or someone; to overestimate it or them.).

Regarded more highly than is deserved

ok. The media and fans think WAY too highly of Jr fans. Calling him a legend and the best ever explains that perfectly. Jr is given high expectations, and fails everytime.

There is no ifs, ands, or buts about it. Dale Earnhardt Jr is over-rated in one way, shape, or form. Everyone has an opinion, but stats don't lie.

I don't hate Dale Jr. As I said in the other thread, I hate no driver. But when we have the media and fans raving on about how Jr is this and that, it irritates me cause Jr can't back up the expectations. When Jr is as popular as he is, I expect him to put up great numbers. Not solid numbers, GREAT numbers. And Jr's numbers are only solid. Again, Jr is over-rated, and until he puts up GREAT numbers, he will always be over-rated in my eyes, because stats don't lie, and popularity don't lie.

[PenelopePitStop]

Originally Posted by clutch

Wow, glad that you posted these stats; it shows that Gordon really in a class above the rest even tho many wont admit it

I think this year will be back to 'business as usual" for the 24 team

I wouldn't use "class" and "Gordon" in the same phrase.

[LSC9901]

Originally Posted by Mike24

I have heard people time and time again say "Dale Earnhardt Jr is the best driver on the NASCAR circuit! Dale Jr is better than HMS combined! Jr is the best ever!" Although I haven't heard anyone on this forum make these absurd comments, I have seen them before. Ok, first off, DEI as a team has no championships, and Jr has no championships, while Rick Hendrick as a TEAM has 6, Gordon having 4, Johnson and Labonte with 1 each. So again, tell me, Jr is better than HMS combined? Please.

OK so first off no one here has said that by your own admission. Herer is another set of numbers to consider. Dale jarrett, a NASCAR Champion, has won 32 races in 19 years. That is 1.68 races per year. Jr has won 17 in 6 years or 2.833 per year. While a championship is a championship, statisically Jr is a more frequent visitor to victory lane than a "Champion"

Originally Posted by Mike24

Jr has been around for 7 years? ok. Jeff Gordon won 3 championships in a 6 year timespan, but how many does Jr have? 0. And lets compare the wins in a 7 year timespan between Jr and Jeff. Jeff has 49 wins, thats right, a whopping 49 WINS in a 7 YEAR TIMESPAN! How many does Jr have? 17! And Jr is better than Jeff? Not by a long shot! And many other drivers including Tony Stewart, and the list goes on, have had more wins in a 7 year timespan than Jr. Jr the best ever? Not a chance.

Again by your admission then Richard Petty must be the very best ... no question. Statiscally no one can or should say that Jr is better than Jeff. The numbers prove otherwise.

Originally Posted by Mike24

And the thing that baffles me by far. Some people say Jr is a LEGEND. I said it right, A LEGEND! Give me a break! How is Jr a legend in a 7 year timespan when he has 0 championships and only 17 wins? And Jr by far receives the most attention, so I expect popularity means big numbers. Jr, Stewart, Petty, Earnhardt, Gordon, and the list goes on are popular, and the big numbers show for it. Jr on the other hand, he is popular, but the numbers don't show for it. And Jr is a legend? If you think Jr is already a legend, then your just...... ahhh, that kinda talk will get me in some deep trouble.

I have never said he is a legend. Once again I cannot say it enough, ..... that is all media hype to make fans spend money. I understand your definition of overrated but as a racing fan I look at the sport statistically. That puts everyone on a more equal basis versus what I think of Jr or what you think of him. If you look at the numbers and leave out the name, the history behind the name, the sponsors, owner and so on, I think you have to admit that his numbers are far better than the average driver. Overrated is a matter of perception. Look at the stats that are real and compare the stats not the opinions. Opinions are what we have and we all know that few of us agree on each others opinions.

[Nevadastars]

Originally Posted by PenelopePitStop

I wouldn't use "class" and "Gordon" in the same phrase.

You GO girl!

Some people think that stats are the ONLY thing that make a driver. Ol Gordo would have been just another Hendrick driver if he didnt have Evernham. He has been good, but not great without him. (No need to respond Mike, its been beat to death over and over).
BTW, anyone else notice that the person who started this thread seems have to fell off the planet? Maybe just a sh*t stirrer?

[LSC9901]

Originally Posted by Nevadastars

You GO girl!

Some people think that stats are the ONLY thing that make a driver. Ol Gordo would have been just another Hendrick driver if he didnt have Evernham. He has been good, but not great without him. (No need to respond Mike, its been beat to death over and over).
BTW, anyone else notice that the person who started this thread seems have to fell off the planet? Maybe just a sh*t stirrer?

Just took a quick look and the person that started this came and went on the same day.

[Nevadastars]

Originally Posted by LSC9901

Just took a quick look and the person that started this came and went on the same day.

Like I suspected, someone that just likes to

[PenelopePitStop]

Originally Posted by Mike24

I have heard people time and time again say "Dale Earnhardt Jr is the best driver on the NASCAR circuit! Dale Jr is better than HMS combined! Jr is the best ever!" Although I haven't heard anyone on this forum make these absurd comments, I have seen them before. Ok, first off, DEI as a team has no championships, and Jr has no championships, while Rick Hendrick as a TEAM has 6, Gordon having 4, Johnson and Labonte with 1 each. So again, tell me, Jr is better than HMS combined? Please.

Jr has been around for 7 years? ok. Jeff Gordon won 3 championships in a 6 year timespan, but how many does Jr have? 0. And lets compare the wins in a 7 year timespan between Jr and Jeff. Jeff has 49 wins, thats right, a whopping 49 WINS in a 7 YEAR TIMESPAN! How many does Jr have? 17! And Jr is better than Jeff? Not by a long shot! And many other drivers including Tony Stewart, and the list goes on, have had more wins in a 7 year timespan than Jr. Jr the best ever? Not a chance.

And the thing that baffles me by far. Some people say Jr is a LEGEND. I said it right, A LEGEND! Give me a break! How is Jr a legend in a 7 year timespan when he has 0 championships and only 17 wins? And Jr by far receives the most attention, so I expect popularity means big numbers. Jr, Stewart, Petty, Earnhardt, Gordon, and the list goes on are popular, and the big numbers show for it. Jr on the other hand, he is popular, but the numbers don't show for it. And Jr is a legend? If you think Jr is already a legend, then your just...... ahhh, that kinda talk will get me in some deep trouble.

I think this is plenty of detail. If I have to give some more details, I will.

And let me give you the definition of over-rated.

1. To assess or think too highly of something or someone; to overestimate it or them.).

Regarded more highly than is deserved

ok. The media and fans think WAY too highly of Jr fans. Calling him a legend and the best ever explains that perfectly. Jr is given high expectations, and fails everytime.

There is no ifs, ands, or buts about it. Dale Earnhardt Jr is over-rated in one way, shape, or form. Everyone has an opinion, but stats don't lie.

I don't hate Dale Jr. As I said in the other thread, I hate no driver. But when we have the media and fans raving on about how Jr is this and that, it irritates me cause Jr can't back up the expectations. When Jr is as popular as he is, I expect him to put up great numbers. Not solid numbers, GREAT numbers. And Jr's numbers are only solid. Again, Jr is over-rated, and until he puts up GREAT numbers, he will always be over-rated in my eyes, because stats don't lie, and popularity don't lie.

Easy, Mike, easy! Nobody is attacking you or Gordon!

I don't think Jr. is better than Gordon by any stretch. Does Gordon have a better official record? Yes. But it's "how" he got his wins that makes him less popular than Jr. I've seen Sr. and Jr. make incredible moves during a race that I just haven't seen with Gordon.

As of late, if Jr. screws up, he admits to it. I've never heard Gordon do the same. He always blames someone else. What completely turned me off to Gordon happened a few years ago. He wrecked someone to get the win, and during a post-race interview, he said, "He wouldn't let me by!" Wouldn't let him by? What racer just lets another racer by for the win? That's racin'. You've got to figure out a way to get by without causing a wreck! That was it for me!

Do I think Jr. is a legend? No way. Not yet anyway. I feel the same about Gordon. I think there are only two drivers who are legends in the sport, Petty and Sr. That's it. There may never be another, though there are many other good drivers.

Busch and Johnson won championships. I don't think that makes them two of the "best".

If you base who is the best driver solely on the number of races they have won, I guess that's a different mindset.

[PenelopePitStop]

Originally Posted by LSC9901

OK so first off no one here has said that by your own admission. Herer is another set of numbers to consider. Dale jarrett, a NASCAR Champion, has won 32 races in 19 years. That is 1.68 races per year. Jr has won 17 in 6 years or 2.833 per year. While a championship is a championship, statisically Jr is a more frequent visitor to victory lane than a "Champion"



Again by your admission then Richard Petty must be the very best ... no question. Statiscally no one can or should say that Jr is better than Jeff. The numbers prove otherwise.


I have never said he is a legend. Once again I cannot say it enough, ..... that is all media hype to make fans spend money. I understand your definition of overrated but as a racing fan I look at the sport statistically. That puts everyone on a more equal basis versus what I think of Jr or what you think of him. If you look at the numbers and leave out the name, the history behind the name, the sponsors, owner and so on, I think you have to admit that his numbers are far better than the average driver. Overrated is a matter of perception. Look at the stats that are real and compare the stats not the opinions. Opinions are what we have and we all know that few of us agree on each others opinions.

Man, you're good!

[PenelopePitStop]

Originally Posted by Nevadastars

You GO girl!

Some people think that stats are the ONLY thing that make a driver. Ol Gordo would have been just another Hendrick driver if he didnt have Evernham. He has been good, but not great without him. (No need to respond Mike, its been beat to death over and over).
BTW, anyone else notice that the person who started this thread seems have to fell off the planet? Maybe just a sh*t stirrer?

Yes, I do believe the author of the original post is history! Thank the heavens!

I agree that stats aren't the only issue. I think Mark Martin is great, regardless of his stats. I am/was not a Sr. fan due to his 7 championships, but for other reasons. I loved him as much as others hated him. Honestly, I don't even follow the stats all that closely.

[Souporscotty]

Is this gonna be another season where every thread gets hijacked by the Gordon lover/haters ?

[PenelopePitStop]

Originally Posted by Souporscotty

Is this gonna be another season where every thread gets hijacked by the Gordon lover/haters ?

Does that happen a lot?

[Souporscotty]

Originally Posted by PenelopePitStop

Does that happen a lot?

Oh man, last fall, almost EVERY thread, no matter WHAT it was about, ended up being a big row between the Gordon lover/haters.

[SpaceCadet]

Originally Posted by PenelopePitStop

But it's "how" he got his wins that makes him less popular than Jr. I've seen Sr. and Jr. make incredible moves during a race that I just haven't seen with Gordon.

As of late, if Jr. screws up, he admits to it. I've never heard Gordon do the same. He always blames someone else. What completely turned me off to Gordon happened a few years ago. He wrecked someone to get the win, and during a post-race interview, he said, "He wouldn't let me by!" Wouldn't let him by? What racer just lets another racer by for the win? That's racin'. You've got to figure out a way to get by without causing a wreck! That was it for me!

If you base who is the best driver solely on the number of races they have won, I guess that's a different mindset.

Gee, PPS, I feel like I'm picking on you, but I'm really not. I just have a few questions. The statement at the top, what do you mean by "how" they got the wins? And what moves are we talking about that were so incredible? If I went back and watched a few races, I could probably find 20 great moves in each race, maybe even fantastic ones. The Earnhardt's don't hold the corner in the awesome moves department. And the statement by Gordon that has left you with a less than positive opinion of him? You and seeminly the rest of the entire free world, I might add. I can sit here and think of many other drivers making statements similar or almost exactly like that. Kenseth, Harvick, Johnson, Biffle, Edwards and more, not to mention the king of "it's not my fault" Tony Stewart. At one time or another, I would bet that every driver has said those words. Earnhardt, Sr. certainly did. I would love to be able to find a clip for each of these examples, but I'd have to quit my job and divorce my entire family to have the time to hunt for them. (hhhmmmmm, maybe I'm on to something!) My point being, this statement by Gordon is not unique, yet Gordon is often singled out. That's why I'm one of those people that are of a different mindset. I like stats because they are not emotional. They are what they are and are not changeable. I can't get so upset about what a driver says to dislike him soley on that basis. I even like Stewart, who, in my opinion, is a HUGE hypocrit. Jr. is an above average driver to fans who realistically look at stats. To the over the top Jr. is the "king of the cup circuit" fans, stats say he is the best ever. I see them for what they are, a tool for determining who is doing or has done something right. Jr.'s a good driver. Maybe someday is stats will make him great!